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Moonwalk

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85. This is all true enough, but my point is that we need to avoid comparing apples with oranges...

Mon Jul 22, 2013, 02:21 PM

Jul 2013

...female circumcision (or male come to that) isn't the same as a cultural or religious "uniform" worn by a certain group. We outlaw female circumcision--and should outlaw male--because it involves unnecessary mutilation of a child that can't be reversed. We would say that this sort of decision should be made by an informed adult, of their own free will. As for sacrificing animals--that's cruelty to animals and we don't allow that.

If we're going to compare Apples and Apples, shouldn't we compare this veil to other cultural/religious uniforms? Turbans and white outfits worn by certain Sikhs, yarmulkes and prayer shawls for orthodox Jews (or just the fact that orthodox jewish women cover their hair and arms and wear longish skirts?), Amish clothing, etc. These are all cultural uniforms (which might or might not have their basis in the religion). These are not outlawed by us (or by France come to that). Why not? Because they don't harm the wearer or those around him/her--it doesn't even harm their children who might have to wear them as kids of that family, but then could decide to give up wearing them as adults.

Why is the veil different? If the woman wants to wear it, but the law won't let her, then we have to ask--how is this veil harmful to the country? To others? What are we protecting people from? Especially given that she is not breaking the modesty laws of that culture, only keeping to her own.

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France veil row sparks Trappes unrest [View all] Bosonic Jul 2013 OP

If people are so eager... JaneFordA Jul 2013 #1

That is not their way... cosmicone Jul 2013 #3

Not going to be easy for the French on this one 7962 Jul 2013 #11

Deportation might be a good idea Warpy Jul 2013 #52

But would you say the same thing for the US? 7962 Jul 2013 #78

I think women need to uncover their faces here Warpy Jul 2013 #84

Very good points. And amen to that last sentence!! nt 7962 Jul 2013 #105

"the language" jberryhill Jul 2013 #104

There is no "language of the united states", 7962 Jul 2013 #106

You seem not to understand France much jberryhill Jul 2013 #110

Oh, yes, I'm aware of that, 7962 Jul 2013 #148

They administered a chunk of Syria and Lebanon too jberryhill Jul 2013 #151

Many immigrants from Europe lived here in communities of similar ethnicity Gormy Cuss Aug 2013 #182

Yep. nt awoke_in_2003 Jul 2013 #18

I wouldn't cast stones there. France hasn't always been that civilized and allowing or not allowing- Moonwalk Jul 2013 #4

She can do so in her home or mosque. cosmicone Jul 2013 #5

That's freaking ridiculous. Why do you need a veil to commit an act of terror? Comrade Grumpy Jul 2013 #12

One doesn't need a veil to commit any crime cosmicone Jul 2013 #14

Wow, that is one of the nuttiest ideas in the arsenal... JackRiddler Jul 2013 #58

covering ones face with a mask is illegal in many places,. mostly to deter robbery and violent crime Civilization2 Jul 2013 #7

Ku Kluxers are not allowed to wear their hoods in public demonstrations I believe. byeya Jul 2013 #17

NYC - use of 150 yr old law against OWS LiberalElite Jul 2013 #26

Its not religious. Its not in the Quran. Its cultural riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #27

Harming women goes both ways. If a woman is raised to hide her face in public-- Moonwalk Jul 2013 #44

I think your opening statement is the one that defeats the rest of your reasoning. pennylane100 Jul 2013 #59

Um, no, my opening statement doesn't defeat anything. Yours is a different argument-- Moonwalk Jul 2013 #61

Where does the Bible require wearing a yarmulke? jberryhill Jul 2013 #116

I have no idea what the bible has to say about the yarmulke riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #121

"Western cultures do not have a cultural tradition of covering faces." jberryhill Jul 2013 #123

Uh huh. One hour of mourning in a sheer veil compared to a daily shroud riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #124

If you want to talk about "traditions" jberryhill Jul 2013 #126

Sure then lets quibble about thread count. Again you post a pic of a sheer veil riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #127

You missed these Christian women.... jberryhill Jul 2013 #129

Pics of cloistered nuns. riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #143

Oh please!!!! the bridal veil was worm much longer than 30 minutes Alameda Jul 2013 #173

actually face veils were common in the Western countries... Alameda Jul 2013 #165

Jacqueline Kennedy wearing a sheer piece of fabric for her husband's funeral riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #172

Because having your vaginal lips reshaped is the bitchkitty Aug 2013 #183

obviously, you did not read the article Alameda Aug 2013 #184

Her husband reportedly tried to strangle the police officer. pnwmom Jul 2013 #62

+1 JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #103

I don't know, but could it be he was defending his wife? Alameda Jul 2013 #174

What She said. BlueJazz Jul 2013 #9

I agree with you on this one. Ednahilda Jul 2013 #15

Of course, they shoudl wear Paris fashion DonCoquixote Jul 2013 #29

This isn't about headscarves. Its about burqas and full face veiling. nt riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #31

and what civilized society are you referring to? Alameda Jul 2013 #51

On the one hand, I believe in freedom of religion, on the other hand.... Moonwalk Jul 2013 #2

The French police law is morally right. David__77 Jul 2013 #6

I consider myself a 1st Amendment absolutist but draw the line with things like the full face veil. alp227 Jul 2013 #8

The "public safety" argument is BS Bragi Jul 2013 #10

Actually the face covering ban DOES apply to balaclavas, masks and helmets riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #35

Actually topfreedom has been established in law in Ontario (Toronto is in this province!) Civilization2 Jul 2013 #38

Yay for Toronto... riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #79

Thanks, I didn't know that Bragi Jul 2013 #45

when it's over 100 degrees and I see a gal in Texas covered head to toe Skittles Jul 2013 #41

Agreed! hrmjustin Jul 2013 #54

Not true. Face masks aren't allowed. n/t pnwmom Jul 2013 #63

Whole lot of "I'm for rights except for *those people*" in this thread. (nt) Posteritatis Jul 2013 #13

Yeah, and some of "those people" are the Ku Klux Klan byeya Jul 2013 #83

How terrible either way azurnoir Jul 2013 #16

I wonder how many would choose to live a faceless life if not for the men in their life.... Marrah_G Jul 2013 #19

Perhaps you could get to know some Muslim women and find out? n/t azurnoir Jul 2013 #20

I could also ask the women of the FLDS if they would choose to live how they do Marrah_G Jul 2013 #21

but again you assume rather than reason or question azurnoir Jul 2013 #22

sigh.... Marrah_G Jul 2013 #23

okay I'll give you 2 examples of what I am speaking of here azurnoir Jul 2013 #40

Your first example doesn't explain anything Marrah_G Jul 2013 #42

actually the first example does explain something if you give it some thought azurnoir Jul 2013 #43

That doesn't prove a thing cosmicone Jul 2013 #47

Full face veiling is not religious. Its not in the Quran. Its cultural riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #24

yes I am well aware that full face veiling is not Islamic law azurnoir Jul 2013 #25

"Some" Islamic women "choose" to get their genitals cut off too. riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #28

That is North African custom DonCoquixote Jul 2013 #32

Yup, cultural, not religious. And I did qualify it with "some" Muslimahs do it riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #33

I think another poster has addressed this however azurnoir Jul 2013 #34

No negative health consequences being disappeared your entire adult life? riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #36

wearing a niqab is not being disappeared or relagated to second class citizenship unless azurnoir Jul 2013 #37

I was at an AIDS conference in Vienna cosmicone Jul 2013 #48

a niqab and a burka are 2 different things n/t azurnoir Jul 2013 #70

I'm sorry but it certainly is relegating those women to second class riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #80

Actually there is major health consequences with wear niqabs for instance widespread snagglepuss Jul 2013 #107

Not really as sun light is not the only source of Vitamin D these days azurnoir Jul 2013 #109

Then why are aso many middle eastern universities conducting vitamin d deficiency studies. snagglepuss Jul 2013 #111

One University and the study was of nursing mothers azurnoir Jul 2013 #113

Then why are aso many middle eastern universities conducting vitamin d deficiency studies. snagglepuss Jul 2013 #112

Thought it was so very clever you had to post it twice? azurnoir Jul 2013 #115

My first post was a reply to myself. The dig is based on Islam's insistence that the Koran is snagglepuss Jul 2013 #125

Alert this woman to health dangers! jberryhill Jul 2013 #178

If an adult woman wants to do that, then no, there should be no law against it any more... Moonwalk Jul 2013 #46

I am also against male circumcision, especially on infant boys riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #81

This is all true enough, but my point is that we need to avoid comparing apples with oranges... Moonwalk Jul 2013 #85

Headscarves, turbans, yarmulke etc do not equal niqabs or burqas riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #88

#1 & #5 I totally understand and are valid. But moving onto #2, etc.... Moonwalk Jul 2013 #149

I'm 110% behind going after ANY culture or religion that oppresses women riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #155

I'm not saying "go slow," I'm saying "go smart." I'm not convinced-- Moonwalk Jul 2013 #175

Is this okay with you? jberryhill Jul 2013 #177

Can you actually back up your claim? Alameda Jul 2013 #50

I am against any body modification on any child. Period. riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #82

religious beliefs are passed from parents to children like a diseases,. . Civilization2 Jul 2013 #39

+1000 smirkymonkey Jul 2013 #176

Thank you Azunoir, from a Muslima Alameda Jul 2013 #49

stereotyping or preconceived notions azurnoir Jul 2013 #71

Yes, I know. It's very sad. Alameda Jul 2013 #162

I respect your right to wear whatever when legally allowed. cosmicone Jul 2013 #74

I think you may be confusing the hijab (headscarf) with niqab (face veil) azurnoir Jul 2013 #75

I know the difference. cosmicone Jul 2013 #76

First of all let me correct your incorrect names of things Alameda Jul 2013 #161

In Iran, they wear chador - it's like a half moon shaped bedsheet, the curved part MADem Jul 2013 #179

Well Alameda, when I put on a mask it is liberating. People often do things in masks/anonymity they KittyWampus Jul 2013 #98

So, I'll put you down for.... jberryhill Jul 2013 #117

why the heck would you "put me down for favoring face recognition software bla bla bla" KittyWampus Jul 2013 #171

You know, Alameda Jul 2013 #164

exactly DonCoquixote Jul 2013 #30

The veil and hijab are not even in the Q'uran. cosmicone Jul 2013 #53

So? jberryhill Jul 2013 #118

Yarmulkes are not obligatory. n/t cosmicone Jul 2013 #128

Pass a law outlawing wearing them, and see what happens jberryhill Jul 2013 #130

I doubt such a law would be passed. cosmicone Jul 2013 #131

thus taking care of the hitherto little commented violent crime wave by Muslim women jberryhill Jul 2013 #132

It is not about muslim women. cosmicone Jul 2013 #133

How often does that happen? jberryhill Jul 2013 #135

The niqabs are not banned at all times... cosmicone Jul 2013 #136

I see... jberryhill Jul 2013 #137

Niqabs would be allowed at Chamonix too cosmicone Jul 2013 #138

So, I'm confused jberryhill Jul 2013 #139

"utility" cosmicone Jul 2013 #141

So public masquerade festivals are right out jberryhill Jul 2013 #142

How many masquerade festivals are held in France every year again? riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #144

People wear balaclavas other than on ski slopes jberryhill Jul 2013 #146

Actually there have been arrests and fine for wearing balaclavas... riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #150

Bad things happen when people cover their faces in France--just two hours ago! MADem Jul 2013 #181

Not in banks, convenience stores, supermarkets, etc--unless they're robbing the place. nt MADem Jul 2013 #180

Yes, they ban kippahs in France in public schools. Behind the Aegis Jul 2013 #166

No, they are not, but there is reference to head coverings in the Talmud. Behind the Aegis Jul 2013 #167

I like to see how men would handle having to ware this Garb. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #55

Like chausables, double cassocks, or the full soutane? kwassa Jul 2013 #56

Bishop Roskam Wore that rainbow cope to our gay pride celebrations in my parish. hrmjustin Jul 2013 #57

Love them all. kwassa Jul 2013 #67

My rector ran for Bishop of LI. Some of the parishes out there did not like the idea of a woman hrmjustin Jul 2013 #69

Not one of them is wearing a face mask. n/t pnwmom Jul 2013 #64

and the vast majority of Muslims don't, either. kwassa Jul 2013 #65

But the woman in the OP was wearing a "face covering veil." pnwmom Jul 2013 #68

I am sorry I offended your sensibility by deviating from strict adherence to the OP. kwassa Jul 2013 #72

Lots of people don't read carefully enough to follow a discussion. pnwmom Jul 2013 #73

French police telling a woman to take off a veil is as bad as Saudi police telling her to put it on. rug Jul 2013 #60

Not when the law bans all face masks in public, whether worn by men or women. pnwmom Jul 2013 #66

A law banning all face masks is as bad as one requiring them. rug Jul 2013 #86

Would you please answer my question? Women in face masks do drive in my city. pnwmom Jul 2013 #89

I would hand her my license and lift her prints. rug Jul 2013 #91

Lift her prints? Yeah, right. n/t pnwmom Jul 2013 #94

You're right. Let's just instead pass a law forbidding all face coverings. rug Jul 2013 #96

Elizabeth Smart would have benefited from such a law while she was pnwmom Jul 2013 #97

I think Elizabeth Smart had more to worry about than tattoos. rug Jul 2013 #102

I have no idea what tattoos have to do with this. n/t pnwmom Jul 2013 #114

First off.... jberryhill Jul 2013 #119

My insurance agent must have misinformed me then. pnwmom Jul 2013 #153

Yeah, if the other party is willing to do so jberryhill Jul 2013 #154

You first said that it was "none of your business" to check anyone's license for any purpose. pnwmom Jul 2013 #156

So you are saying jberryhill Jul 2013 #157

If it came down to a court case, how could I identify the person who hit me pnwmom Jul 2013 #159

Are you serious? jberryhill Jul 2013 #163

No. Why do you keep exaggerating what I am saying? nt pnwmom Jul 2013 #168

Okay, let me see if I understand what you are saying jberryhill Jul 2013 #169

You can't go into banks with your face obscured... so I guess it involves banking too riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #90

Which banks? rug Jul 2013 #92

Banks in most western societies like FRANCE. The place we're talking about riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #93

That's right, other ethnocentric institutions. rug Jul 2013 #95

Cultures and societies perpetually change in the face of new forces riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #99

The trick is that he changes in the correct direction. rug Jul 2013 #100

Animal sacrifice was a part of Jewish tradition and now is no longer practiced riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #108

It hasn't been practiced since the destruction of the Temple. rug Jul 2013 #145

I'm not male so no worries about indecency laws and exposing my dick. riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #152

Many observant muslims do not bank at institutions which loan money at interest jberryhill Jul 2013 #120

Fine. It was an example for rug that not all face cover bans are "islamophobia" riderinthestorm Jul 2013 #122

What do you know about Saudi banks? pnwmom Jul 2013 #160

It's not the same thing rpannier Jul 2013 #77

And the Saudi ban is based on its own law. The problem is both laws. rug Jul 2013 #87

He tried to strangle JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #101

It is okay cosmicone Jul 2013 #134

When MLK and his folks marched on Selma... Deep13 Jul 2013 #140

Thank goodness there were never any riots over race in the US jberryhill Jul 2013 #158

historically what is the reason to cover up if not religious ? olddots Jul 2013 #147

Its really not going to matter. jessie04 Jul 2013 #170