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branford

(4,462 posts)
20. I beg to differ. As I see it, there are two primary issues:
Fri Aug 16, 2013, 12:00 PM
Aug 2013

Last edited Fri Aug 16, 2013, 12:31 PM - Edit history (1)

What is in the best interest of the Egyptian people and what is best for America and the wider region.

Despite what Bush '43 might have you believe, a democratic election does not equal democratic institutions, protection of human rights, nor the guarantee of a subsequent free and fair election. The Muslim Brotherhood was democratically elected, but that is not where the analysis necessarily ends. The MB unilaterally began to alter the Egyptian constitution and oppress the opposition. In addition to failing to address Egypt's immediate economic concerns, they appear to have been setting themselves up for an unchallenged, indefinite rule. At the risk of raising the specter of Goodwin's Law, the Germans democratically elected Hitler, and that certainly wasn't in the interest of Germans or anyone else. The military intervention was certainly not sudden or unexpected. Most importantly, a very large number of Egyptians, likely a solid majority, support the military. What we are currently witnessing is not a simple coup, but likely the beginnings of a civil war.

I would also like to note that my heart does not bleed for the MB. They aren't Quakers peacefully fighting to end discrimination or for women's suffrage. The MB has a very long and infamous history of using violence, intimidation and terrorism to achieve their goals. For instance, I cannot conceive of any possible connection between burning down over 50 Coptic churches with opposing military rule, other than intimidation and religious intolerance. I would be very careful romanticizing the MB during these troubles.

The other issue is simple realpolitik - what is good for the USA and the region. We have a long, relatively productive working relationship with the Egyptian military. The army has also historically been committed to peace and stability in the region, maintaining the treaty with Israel and ensuring secular rights for the Egyptian people. The MB is the exact opposite. I'm perfectly aware that the military are hardly democratic humanitarians, but they are a far more stabilizing force in the middle-east and serve the economic and politcal interests of our country and its allies. Of course, that does not mean we need not oppose a violent crackdown. We can seek to moderate the military and still support them over the MB, particularly if the army is supported by a majority of Egyptians.

Quite frankly, as the MB and the military are both intolerant, violent and undemocratic, I wish a pox on both their houses. Nevertheless, the military is unquestionably the party to back in Egypt, while we try to somewhat mitigate their excesses.

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0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

We're mad at the government, so let's kill some Coptic Christians and burn their churches! MADem Aug 2013 #1
They just wont end the cycle of violence. jessie04 Aug 2013 #2
"Cycle of violence?" another_liberal Aug 2013 #4
Do you want the Muslim Brotherhood to also have American heavy weapons and vehicles? branford Aug 2013 #8
You're quick to talk about "democratic" but the fact is that the Muslim Brotherhood candidate was The Stranger Aug 2013 #15
It's like when the Gazans voted leftynyc Aug 2013 #19
Wait a minute. You're illustrating the problem. The Stranger Aug 2013 #26
That's laughable leftynyc Aug 2013 #28
NOW you are beginning to grasp the dilemma. The Stranger Aug 2013 #42
You're making a ridiculous argument leftynyc Aug 2013 #43
The Weimar republic did have legitimate elections and the election of November 1932... JVS Aug 2013 #51
Interesting. The Stranger Aug 2013 #100
You are the person John2 Aug 2013 #62
Actually, I think you and I agree, for the most part. The Stranger Aug 2013 #99
You can't be said to meaningfully support elections if you would have their results ignored. JVS Aug 2013 #52
Nobody is talking about ignoring results leftynyc Aug 2013 #82
How many times must you be told before you stop spreading this fertilizer? azurnoir Aug 2013 #50
Deceptive, at best. branford Aug 2013 #60
so you must also believe that the GOP rules the US? azurnoir Aug 2013 #61
The last I checked, the Republicans consistently engage in elections; win some and lose some. branford Aug 2013 #63
the Republican does not hold the leadership position in the US azurnoir Aug 2013 #65
What??? I think you need to have a chat with Speaker of the House John Boehner. branford Aug 2013 #66
oh the other boot has dropped azurnoir Aug 2013 #76
Anything is possible, I'm just waiting for any new election in the territories. branford Aug 2013 #78
Have you read this Vanity Fair article? oberliner Aug 2013 #81
read it long ago azurnoir Aug 2013 #86
Glad to hear you think its BS oberliner Aug 2013 #87
I didn't say that did I ? azurnoir Aug 2013 #88
I thought it might change your mind oberliner Aug 2013 #90
as I just said regardless of the circumstances there was a Hamas coup azurnoir Aug 2013 #91
What are you talking about? oberliner Aug 2013 #92
lol nice try but you give it away in one statement azurnoir Aug 2013 #93
These are undisputed facts oberliner Aug 2013 #97
if Haniyeh had been the sole leader of the Palestinians Abbas would not have been able to unseat him azurnoir Aug 2013 #98
How many times are you leftynyc Aug 2013 #83
no twisting involved on my part just simple history, facts, stuff like that :) azurnoir Aug 2013 #85
I beg to differ. As I see it, there are two primary issues: branford Aug 2013 #20
Well siad! tazzersgoldenangel Aug 2013 #23
Actually, that is a different issue. The Stranger Aug 2013 #27
Egypt, and much of the middle east and arab world, has little experience with democratic government. branford Aug 2013 #34
Presumably, there would be something other than the presidency. Morsi was only one person The Stranger Aug 2013 #41
Unfortunately, the only checks and balances that Egypt currently has is the military. branford Aug 2013 #44
Why were they having an election for office when there was no office yet established? The Stranger Aug 2013 #47
Exactly . . . branford Aug 2013 #48
Morsi was removed by a popular uprising PSPS Aug 2013 #77
"the military which, by virtue of its unique role in their society, reflects the will of the people" JVS Aug 2013 #79
But you have to understand that you have set a dangerous precedent. The Stranger Aug 2013 #101
And as soon as he was elected, his group began tabasco Aug 2013 #96
agree PaulKersey Aug 2013 #22
Anyone who can support . . . another_liberal Aug 2013 #25
The generals who staged this coup should be arrested and tried for mass murder. another_liberal Aug 2013 #33
And everyone will join hands under the many rainbows while they pet the unicorns. branford Aug 2013 #38
Your flippancy is completely out of place . . . another_liberal Aug 2013 #69
My purported "flippancy" aside, how would you address the other points in comment? branford Aug 2013 #71
Equating the generals crimes . . . another_liberal Aug 2013 #74
Hold on! branford Aug 2013 #75
Reject all you want. another_liberal Aug 2013 #80
It is interesting to note . . . another_liberal Aug 2013 #3
Its also interesting to note dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #7
I was waiting for this observation. Igel Aug 2013 #13
Do you have a point? another_liberal Aug 2013 #24
BBC live text here dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #5
Several reports have quoted family members of those killed . . . another_liberal Aug 2013 #6
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2013 #9
Jury To The Contrary, Sir, That Post Is Flat Bigotry, And You Know It as Well As I Do The Magistrate Aug 2013 #10
Strange how this site has changed over the years warrant46 Aug 2013 #14
Holy fuck. The Stranger Aug 2013 #16
I gave up on alerting months ago... Blue_Tires Aug 2013 #36
like Meta, jury is another failed experiment. n/t Whisp Aug 2013 #45
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2013 #39
Flat Bigotry, Sir: You Know It, And I Know It The Magistrate Aug 2013 #46
You are way out of line, my friend. another_liberal Aug 2013 #29
Message auto-removed Name removed Aug 2013 #37
So I've read your post and your complaint and... Xyzse Aug 2013 #49
I think back to 2011, where they said "we are not seeking power" bhikkhu Aug 2013 #11
There is a reason why so many Egyptians are backing the military over the MB. n/t branford Aug 2013 #21
If there are so many of them . . .? another_liberal Aug 2013 #30
The election was close. That and the MB's poor leadership help explain the current near civil war. branford Aug 2013 #31
Maybe so . . . another_liberal Aug 2013 #32
I therefore assume that you supported Bush '41 and '43, and most certainly, Ronald Reagan! branford Aug 2013 #40
Nonsense! another_liberal Aug 2013 #67
If you believe my comments are inappropriate, feel free to report me! Good luck with that. branford Aug 2013 #70
You support Israel? another_liberal Aug 2013 #72
I support a peaceful settlement, including two states for two peoples. branford Aug 2013 #73
I am also getting tagged leftynyc Aug 2013 #84
This message was self-deleted by its author cosmicone Aug 2013 #54
the opposition sabbat hunter Aug 2013 #53
Yes, quite true. another_liberal Aug 2013 #68
My estimation of positive or negative change were based on media coverage. freshwest Aug 2013 #95
Have fun, try not to fuck up any national treasures or museums, etc,. snooper2 Aug 2013 #12
Egypt's 'Day of Rage' turns violent, dozens of protesters killed Eugene Aug 2013 #17
On the subject of Wednesday things are not always as reported dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #18
Thanks for the clarification. another_liberal Aug 2013 #35
Why can't the radical Islamic groups react with cosmicone Aug 2013 #55
They'd already tried that. dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #56
Violence is the nature of radical Islamist theocrats. branford Aug 2013 #59
Maybe they should throw flowers at the soldiers massacring them by the hundreds? Comrade Grumpy Aug 2013 #94
these people need a divorce quadrature Aug 2013 #57
There should be a separate country called fuckedupistan cosmicone Aug 2013 #58
Sounds really positive and productive! Quantess Aug 2013 #64
This is why we should have simply backed Mubarak at the beginning. MrSlayer Aug 2013 #89
Mubarak was tone deaf, and he wasn't moving fast enough to transition to civilian rule. MADem Aug 2013 #102
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