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Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)

46. Really?

Mon Oct 28, 2013, 05:07 PM

Oct 2013

So, if we kill innocent people and/or if our program provokes people to more terrorism, that would be the best possible outcome?

Here's a thought:

Stop illegally invading countries, committing war crimes and propping up dictators! I'm guessing that would go a LONG way to curbing people's thirst for our blood.

By the way, exactly which army are we fighting? I wasn't aware that uniformed soldiers were committing acts of terrorism now.

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US kills two top leaders of terror group that attacked Kenya mall [View all] dlwickham Oct 2013 OP

Good riddance. Military group butchers mall shoppers, gets geek tragedy Oct 2013 #1

Ditto. Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #3

Agreed dbackjon Oct 2013 #20

I don't think any Americans were killed. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2013 #78

How did we arrogate for ourselves the right to kill anybody anywhere on the planet? Comrade Grumpy Oct 2013 #80

We are supporting the United Nations, the African Union, and the governments geek tragedy Oct 2013 #113

War without end, amen. Octafish Oct 2013 #125

No, once Al Shahab is crushed that war is over. nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #127

Right you are. I suppose you'll know when that is? Octafish Oct 2013 #131

Sure, when they no longer hold territory, can no longer launch military offensives, geek tragedy Oct 2013 #144

Which is to say, you don't know when that is. Octafish Oct 2013 #157

Well, sure, there's certainly an element of the American left geek tragedy Oct 2013 #158

Do you believe that makes me disloyal? Octafish Oct 2013 #164

Not disloyal, no. It's more akin to isolationism, i.e. Somalia is someone else's geek tragedy Oct 2013 #206

But that's where you're wrong. The Stranger Oct 2013 #264

Yes, people think the US blowing up al shahab guys isn't acceptable geek tragedy Oct 2013 #266

Not even close. The Stranger Oct 2013 #270

Well, that's kinda the thing. "an African conflict in no way involving the U.S." geek tragedy Oct 2013 #271

Bullshit. The Stranger Oct 2013 #282

So you don't think an Al Qaeda affiliate controlling the horn of Africa and the nearby geek tragedy Oct 2013 #283

Well, that's where you're wrong again. The Stranger Oct 2013 #285

Not solely, but drone strikes on leadership happen for a reason. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #286

In January 2013, Ben Emmerson, ronnie624 Oct 2013 #236

It's an Associative Universe. Octafish Oct 2013 #262

The whole world is a war zone, forever. morningfog Oct 2013 #126

You oppose supporting the United Nations? nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #128

Al Qaeda affiliate. Multinational effort geek tragedy Oct 2013 #88

Yeah, "shit happens", right? nt ProudToBeBlueInRhody Oct 2013 #268

I'm sure that the PukeBaggers will complain... SoapBox Oct 2013 #2

And that's a good thing for it being Obama's fault. Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #5

Give credit where credit is due. Mz Pip Oct 2013 #6

should read.... bowens43 Oct 2013 #4

Murdered? Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #7

Sure, just like shooting German soldiers in WWII was just as bad as the Holocaust. nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #8

Should read, "in the continuing vicious cycle of terrorist violence" ... Coyotl Oct 2013 #9

Al Shahab are armed militants. Mall shoppers are mall shoppers. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #12

bingo! dlwickham Oct 2013 #14

I guess Post #4 comes from the "We're just as guilty as they are" wing of DU? 7962 Oct 2013 #16

Sad that someone actually has to point that out. (nt) Posteritatis Oct 2013 #28

Exactly. cosmicone Oct 2013 #44

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #52

The innocent victims Turbineguy Oct 2013 #74

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #109

war is hell and innocent people get hurt all the time cosmicone Oct 2013 #85

Sure, the drones are better for innocent people Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #111

So what is your solution? cosmicone Oct 2013 #124

The perpetually outraged have no solutions leftynyc Oct 2013 #132

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #178

Is that an admission of a lack of an alternate plan? cosmicone Oct 2013 #179

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #181

Nope, you got nothing but attacks on those geek tragedy Oct 2013 #228

The rest of the world calls what the US is doing in Somalia "helping the UN" geek tragedy Oct 2013 #145

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #180

So you all think killing terrorists is worse geek tragedy Oct 2013 #229

yeah but the mall shoppers weren't killed by drones arely staircase Oct 2013 #121

How is a mall shopper a terrorist? nt msanthrope Oct 2013 #18

damn you-I have so many snarky responses that I know would get me banned dlwickham Oct 2013 #27

the "Black Friday" movement is particularly scary, and sometimes violent nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #43

I was thinking along those same lines dlwickham Oct 2013 #148

Maybe we can tell people there are clearance priced Xbox's behind al Shahab's lines geek tragedy Oct 2013 #149

sounds like an idea dlwickham Oct 2013 #212

Heck, they go to Kenya geek tragedy Oct 2013 #215

from Hawaii to Kenya dlwickham Oct 2013 #220

Nope. That's all disinfo jberryhill Oct 2013 #277

thank you dlwickham Oct 2013 #279

Imagine the pain of explaining it jberryhill Oct 2013 #287

Those guys got off easy Mz Pip Oct 2013 #10

If a manned F16 was used to drop the bombs on them, would you feel the same way? penultimate Oct 2013 #23

A certain contingent of the pacificist left opposes any measure taken against geek tragedy Oct 2013 #33

Except, you know, not. (nt) Posteritatis Oct 2013 #26

No, bowens43, you don't have it quite right. Maedhros Oct 2013 #49

You should actually read the article. Might even learn something. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #57

I read the article, thank you. Maedhros Oct 2013 #59

So, would you support boots on the ground to capture these guys? penultimate Oct 2013 #64

If we are compelled to take action against mass murdering criminals Maedhros Oct 2013 #79

What does that ultimately mean? penultimate Oct 2013 #83

You really should learn the law before making such stupid arguments geek tragedy Oct 2013 #142

I see the use of drones as counterproductive in the "War on Terror." Maedhros Oct 2013 #165

So, you see drones as having a magical, talismanic property that makes geek tragedy Oct 2013 #166

No - they do not have magical properties. Maedhros Oct 2013 #169

So, it's air strikes on terrorists to which you object? geek tragedy Oct 2013 #171

I object to neverending global aggression with too little oversight and diminishing returns. Maedhros Oct 2013 #173

Do you realize that the UN is pushing for a more aggressive military response to Al Shahab? geek tragedy Oct 2013 #174

"It's sloppy, kills too many bystanders and has not proved to curtail "terrorist" activities." EX500rider Oct 2013 #217

They tried a snatch last week, didn't work. EX500rider Oct 2013 #70

There weren't 6000 McVeighs occupying geek tragedy Oct 2013 #71

Like I said: there is Rule of Law, and there is Might Makes Right. Maedhros Oct 2013 #77

well if they had surrendered to those navy SEALS a few weeks ago they'd have been arraigned in a Fed arely staircase Oct 2013 #122

No, what the US is doing is legal. It is in coordination with the United Nations. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #141

Oh, for fuck's sake. nt Codeine Oct 2013 #62

I wonder if the drone made people beg for their lives? ProudToBeBlueInRhody Oct 2013 #269

I keep wondering why the NSA monitoring didn't prevent this mall attack? MyNameGoesHere Oct 2013 #11

Al Shahab is at war with the sovereign government of Somalia, so doubtful geek tragedy Oct 2013 #13

Or a choice? MyNameGoesHere Oct 2013 #15

Do you honestly believe the government of Somalia geek tragedy Oct 2013 #17

Heck, it's challenging enough to believe the government of Somalia exists. (nt) Posteritatis Oct 2013 #32

Technically, there is sovereign territory there, so in terms of legal form it exists nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #34

Do you honestly believe we should set the bar with what the government of Somalia deems appropriate? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #36

Would you be happy if say MyNameGoesHere Oct 2013 #37

When the all of the USA east of the Misssissippi is occupied geek tragedy Oct 2013 #39

The Boston Bombers were from Somalia? Fumesucker Oct 2013 #94

What's Chechen for 'non sequitur?' nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #97

geek tragedy n/t Fumesucker Oct 2013 #98

Funny, that means "asshole" in English. nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #104

you should read up on Somalia JI7 Oct 2013 #19

There is no "sovereign government of Somalia", only competing factions Alamuti Lotus Oct 2013 #116

One is backed by the United Nations. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #130

According to this logic we shouldn't have police... ConservativeDemocrat Oct 2013 #21

According to your logic, we shouldn't have courts Maedhros Oct 2013 #47

Courts are for people who are taken into custody. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #55

We're not at war in Somalia, thus by definitiion we have no military targets there. Maedhros Oct 2013 #60

They are armed and engaged in military conflict. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #67

But we are NOT engaged in that conflict. If we were, we would have declared war. Maedhros Oct 2013 #81

They killed Americans, and attacked a US ally. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #86

Will you PLEASE stop this pkdu Oct 2013 #226

At least I didn't mention that Al Shahab is starving children geek tragedy Oct 2013 #227

"If we were, we would have declared war." EX500rider Oct 2013 #194

Yeah, I didn't think that through too well. Maedhros Oct 2013 #200

"rules-of-engagement consider the "battlefield" to be the entire world at any time" EX500rider Oct 2013 #221

"Lawless" does not equate to "a battlefield." [n/t] Maedhros Oct 2013 #225

Just because we deem some place lawless should not give us carte blanche.... EX500rider Oct 2013 #259

Who appointed us World Police? Maedhros Oct 2013 #261

"The Red Brigades and the Bader-Meinhof Gang" EX500rider Oct 2013 #263

To threaten the United States a Yemeni or Somali "terrorist" would have to travel internationally. Maedhros Oct 2013 #265

Right, to hell with the masses of starving... EX500rider Oct 2013 #272

I am unconvinced that you actually care about starving people other than as a rhetorical cudgel. Maedhros Oct 2013 #273

The Authorization to Use Military Force declares war ConservativeDemocrat Oct 2013 #260

"by definition we have no military targets there. They are mass murdering criminals." EX500rider Oct 2013 #216

Bravo! n/t cosmicone Oct 2013 #48

I can understand your MyNameGoesHere Oct 2013 #99

"Doing the right thing is so passe these days. It's just hard. Hard work." EX500rider Oct 2013 #218

Any fool can launch a drone and THINK they are taking care of the problem MyNameGoesHere Oct 2013 #219

Actually killing the tech guys and leaders.. EX500rider Oct 2013 #222

Yes 12 years in and it is working great.. MyNameGoesHere Oct 2013 #224

"we find the cause of it" EX500rider Oct 2013 #254

You know, you'd really better hope that "The Other Side" (de jour) isn't taking notes ... Nihil Oct 2013 #231

Well the Taliban, Al Queda and al-Shabaab are free to try.. EX500rider Oct 2013 #247

Don't know about al-Shabaab's capabilities ... Nihil Oct 2013 #281

"Blowback: It's a real bastard when you're on the receiving end." EX500rider Nov 2013 #289

adios mofos mitchtv Oct 2013 #22

Good news. good riddance al-Shabaab scum rollin74 Oct 2013 #24

And of course Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #25

The alternative is doing nothing but sending them sternly worded letters. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #30

Really? Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #46

So, not content to object to attacking terrorists, now you object to blaming them geek tragedy Oct 2013 #53

You dodge the point Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #101

Nothing you wrote is relevant to Al shahab's campaign geek tragedy Oct 2013 #102

and the people in the mall were not JUST killed...they were tortured and mutilated... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #108

Oh Kevin Mace. tblue Oct 2013 #119

And the rest of thought we had landed in Lala land... EX500rider Oct 2013 #253

Double secret probation, and tell 'em. Then they'll know they're fucked. Kennah Oct 2013 #117

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #182

No, the fallacy is from you "let al shahab do whatever it wants" geek tragedy Oct 2013 #183

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #186

Okay, superprogressive genius all-star, what's your nonviolent solution geek tragedy Oct 2013 #187

At least you are on a better path now Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #190

So, there isn't an actual nonviolent solution as far as you know. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #192

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #238

In other words, you can't think of a nonviolent solution geek tragedy Oct 2013 #239

Due process is so pre-9/11. Maedhros Oct 2013 #45

*sigh* Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #51

Your whitewashing of al Shahab's motive is appalingly ignorant. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #56

Possibly true, Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #133

Ok, when you actually know something about geek tragedy Oct 2013 #134

When you actually know something about the Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #135

I know US history quite well. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #136

I am not an "apologist" Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #167

You are not explaining the cause of terrorism and al Shahab, you're spinning it geek tragedy Oct 2013 #168

Cause and effect - Somalia is a product of imperial policies Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #172

Do you support the UN's goal of militarily defeating Al Shahab? geek tragedy Oct 2013 #175

The UN at least has some legitimacy Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #197

Your answer on the UN was all over the place. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #198

Actually, Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #199

The US is doing what the UN is asking for. So the answer must be geek tragedy Oct 2013 #202

You are correct Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #232

There is not a single intelligent person who doubts geek tragedy Oct 2013 #233

"Somalia is a product of imperial policies" EX500rider Oct 2013 #258

And who stepped in, playing one group off the other Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #275

"Which came first, U.S.government/corporate imperial interventions, or terrorism?" EX500rider Oct 2013 #256

Somalia has been a vassal state and then a pawn of the cold war for Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #274

"If the U.S. wants to stop terrorism..... EX500rider Nov 2013 #295

You keep jumping around Kelvin Mace Nov 2013 #296

Wow. Haven't seen an actual "terrorists are the real victims" narrative bandied around in awhile. nt Posteritatis Oct 2013 #58

Please point to where I said that Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #95

Your are acting as an apologist for al Shahab by claiming that they are merely an oppressed geek tragedy Oct 2013 #110

No kidding. Al Shahab was pushed into trying to conquer Somaliia and exterminate infidels geek tragedy Oct 2013 #112

Terrorism is merely another tool for war... LanternWaste Oct 2013 #69

Let me clarify then Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #92

"Once terrorism has reached the point of suicide bombers, you have lost the fight." EX500rider Oct 2013 #223

Terrorism worked for the IRA Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #242

I didn't say terroism never worked... EX500rider Oct 2013 #245

No, the side that pushes people to suicide bombing has lost Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #249

"Suicide bombing is the third world response to "shock and awe"" EX500rider Oct 2013 #252

Not what I said... Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #278

Well 1st you have to decide.. EX500rider Oct 2013 #280

It comes down to how cavalier you are with other people's lives Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #284

"This would be about the time rescue workers-fireman, paramedics, good Samaritans" EX500rider Nov 2013 #290

Using it at all is wrong Kelvin Mace Nov 2013 #291

Kinda depends... EX500rider Nov 2013 #292

Again, you ducked the more apt comparison Kelvin Mace Nov 2013 #293

Only apt if you think... EX500rider Nov 2013 #294

I didn't ask you if you would be happy the drones arrived Kelvin Mace Nov 2013 #297

Yeah, the kamikazes proved that the US had geek tragedy Oct 2013 #230

Apples and oranges Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #234

So, then so long as we're willing to kill every al shahab that exists, geek tragedy Oct 2013 #235

Yes, that or Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #240

I have answered your questions. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #241

So, your answer is, I believe what I am told Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #243

No, the answer is that I don't need the US military to tell geek tragedy Oct 2013 #244

But you are OK with using Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #246

Oh, so your issue with me is that I don't hate the US military. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #248

Actually the issue I was using was "trust" Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #250

"employing institutions with serious moral deficiencies" well yeah welcome geek tragedy Oct 2013 #251

terrorism is sadly the weapon of the insanely religious fanatical death cults nt arely staircase Oct 2013 #123

People who talk about due process w/r/t Al Shahab have zero interest in actually geek tragedy Oct 2013 #54

One either believes in the rule of law, or in "might makes right." [n/t] Maedhros Oct 2013 #61

Rule of criminal procedure covers unarmed people in custody, geek tragedy Oct 2013 #68

At last, a voice of dispassionate reason. tblue Oct 2013 #118

Do you support the United Nations in its efforts to defeat Al Shahab? geek tragedy Oct 2013 #143

Legal trials suck monkey balls NoOneMan Oct 2013 #29

Avoid inconveniencing al Shahab! Let them kill as much as they want! geek tragedy Oct 2013 #31

A legal trial is now appeasement? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #35

Insisting on an impossibility instead of meaningful action is indeed appeasement. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #38

Maybe we need to rethink that military budget NoOneMan Oct 2013 #40

So, you propose invading Somalia to capture them? geek tragedy Oct 2013 #41

What is the price of law and justice? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #63

Killing al Shahab is perfectly legal. They are combatants. Nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #66

Maybe? We don't know. Has he been convicted of such in a court of law with a fair trial? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #75

Courts of law don't determine who is party to geek tragedy Oct 2013 #76

Is funny how all this weasel wording is developed to relabel terrorist NoOneMan Oct 2013 #82

Terrorists, yes. Entire armies, no. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #84

What is the non-arbitrary threshold for when a terrorists' followers are too numerous for arrest? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #87

The line is way below an armed and organized force geek tragedy Oct 2013 #89

Just point to the law please NoOneMan Oct 2013 #90

It's a subsection of the law that permits geek tragedy Oct 2013 #91

Yes. "Sufficient numbers". Where is the non-arbitrary definition of such NoOneMan Oct 2013 #93

The relevant law is the AUMF of 2001. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #96

Conversely, under international law, is it permissible to use force to kill international criminals NoOneMan Oct 2013 #100

If they're armed and engaged on armed attacks, yes. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #103

Were they when the drone fired at them? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #105

Ah, the old pacifist chestnut that it's illegal to kill anyone if their finger isn't on the trigger geek tragedy Oct 2013 #107

Oh. You mean Japanese soldiers in WWII? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #115

You act as of being an illegal unconventional geek tragedy Oct 2013 #129

Likewise, you act as if their unconventional nature allows the US to skirt all law in pursuit NoOneMan Oct 2013 #137

Somalia is a theater of war. An ironclad justification for shooting at them geek tragedy Oct 2013 #138

Where is the US declaration of war on Somalia? Has this declaration been deemed permissible by... NoOneMan Oct 2013 #139

The US is aiding United Nations efforts to defeat al Shahab. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #140

"dishonest question" NoOneMan Oct 2013 #146

There is a war in Somalia, and al Shahab is one of the main parties in that war. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #147

So just Somalia then? Not Pakistan? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #150

Changing the subject now that your complaints abou tthis action have geek tragedy Oct 2013 #151

I'm trying to figure out if your grounds are groundless NoOneMan Oct 2013 #152

In other words, yes you are changing the subject because it turns geek tragedy Oct 2013 #154

So Pakistan? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #155

We have the tacit permission of their government, and stirkes against AQ/Taliban geek tragedy Oct 2013 #156

So? I didn't ask if the US had permission. I asked if the extrajudicial killings there are legal NoOneMan Oct 2013 #159

Permission=legal. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #160

I'd think that if a regime gave the US permission to torture its citizens, we could agree thats... NoOneMan Oct 2013 #161

Playing Calvinball again. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #162

"Permission=legal" NoOneMan Oct 2013 #163

No, bin Laden was the commander of al qaeda when he was taken out. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #184

He is the on extrajudicial killing in Pakistan? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #188

Af-Pak is a war zone, so yeah the killings there tend to be extra-judicial nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #189

Were at war with Pakistan? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #191

I'll admit that you've worn me down with your repetition geek tragedy Oct 2013 #193

Guess you weren't paying attention the last time they tried that in Mogadishu, then. (nt) Posteritatis Oct 2013 #50

You then believe a trial of suspected terrorists would soothe the ruffled feathers of other terroris LanternWaste Oct 2013 #72

Feel free to point out where I said anything close to the statement you're replying to. (nt) Posteritatis Oct 2013 #73

Go drones!! cosmicone Oct 2013 #42

The cycle of violence continues... Ash_F Oct 2013 #65

Good! Kaleva Oct 2013 #106

Took the word right out of my mouth. n/t Adsos Letter Oct 2013 #114

I guess in retrospect they should have surrendered to the Navy SEALS when they had a chance arely staircase Oct 2013 #120

Al-Shabaab shot first. riqster Oct 2013 #153

and bulldozing Iraqi soldiers to death in their trenches was fair game reddread Oct 2013 #170

So, you're in the "let al shahab win" camp geek tragedy Oct 2013 #185

garbage reddread Oct 2013 #201

So, just to be clear, you oppose any US use of force to help the UN geek tragedy Oct 2013 #203

are you still hoping to speak for me? reddread Oct 2013 #204

you were certainly willing to speak for other people yourself geek tragedy Oct 2013 #205

yeah, what grade level reading comprehension were you able to make it to? reddread Oct 2013 #207

Yes, your condemnation of anyone who gives a fuck what happens to the people geek tragedy Oct 2013 #208

johnee jingo reddread Oct 2013 #209

Neville Notmyproblem geek tragedy Oct 2013 #210

Joseph Kennedy reddread Oct 2013 #213

A wide range of outcomes. Violence solved the problem of Nazi Germany nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #214

USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! kiawah Oct 2013 #176

To kill a terrorist is to play his game. burnsei sensei Oct 2013 #177

"I wish they had been apprehended." EX500rider Oct 2013 #196

The Mosad apprehended the criminal Eichmann quite handily. burnsei sensei Oct 2013 #255

Right, 'cause a lone man in Argentina... EX500rider Oct 2013 #257

One advantage terrorists have taken over the years is being burnsei sensei Oct 2013 #276

Eichmann? Seriously? RZM Oct 2013 #267

awesome job beachbum bob Oct 2013 #195

President Obama has a lot of notches in his gun! Mysterysouppe Oct 2013 #211

Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2013 #237

Good job, Droney! tabasco Oct 2013 #288