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In reply to the discussion: US kills two top leaders of terror group that attacked Kenya mall [View all]geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)168. You are not explaining the cause of terrorism and al Shahab, you're spinning it
to suit your own ideological agenda. Al Shahab's motives are not related to your objections to US foreign policy. Trying to exterminate all Muslims, starve the people of Somalia, and force everyone else to convert to radical Islam is not resistance to imperialism. It is imperialism of a different king.
This is nonsense bordering on gibberish:
However, the U.S. has acted in violation of the Constitution (Congress has not declared war against any nation, and the AUMF does not absolve Congress nor empower the President to abrogate their Constitutional duties). Thus, the U.S. has no legal military grounds to violate other nation's sovereignty and kill its citizens. Also, the U.S. government has issued no arrest warrants that I have seen to arrest and extradite these people for trial and punishment if convicted.
1. The Constitution does not require Congress to declare war against a nation in order to authorize military force. That's just something you made up. Law is not a game of Calvinball wherein it means "it is illegal to take action which offends the sensibilties of the anti-American left at any given moment."
2. Al Shahab is fighting against the lawful government of Somalia. We are not violating Somalia's sovereignty by helping it quash a rogue militia/army whose goal is to conquer Somalia. The US is coordinating its efforts with Somalia's government. In fact, the United Nations is coordinating the international military response to al Shahab. So, your appeal to Somalia's sovereignty is a red herring.
3. There is no need to issue arrest warrants when dealing with a military opponent. Military opponents may be killed until they surrender. Then talk about arrest warrants becomes relevant. Not until then. Regardless of their criminal status, their status as military participants in a war means they are legitimate targets of armed force so long as they are participants. If they don't want to get shot or droned, their only option is to stop waging war.
This is the kind of moral equivalence horse shit that gives leftists a bad name:
Thus, the U.S., like the terrorists, is acting outside the legal strictures of both military and criminal law as defined and enforced by treaty (strictures the U.S. agreed to be legally bound to).
The US action is legal, in accordance with both US law and is in support of the United Nations' mission in the area. Al Shahab murders civilians and has forced all food aid organizations out of the area, imposing famine on the area.
There is no room for differing opinions on this. You are simply wrong, factually and ethically, based on your ideological conviction that the United States is the source of all evil on Planet Earth.
If you get past your Great Satan theory of international politics, you will understand law and war much better.
Until then, I guess you're free to persist in your fact-free fantasy that terrorists are the way they are because Americans forced them to be that way, and that it's illegal to do anything to inconvenience terrorists if they amass in such numbers that civilian law enforcement can't touch them.
But those with responsibility in the real world have to actually address the problem of civil war and famine in Somalia, not soil themselves over being mean to terrrorist and wannabe conquerors.
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How did we arrogate for ourselves the right to kill anybody anywhere on the planet?
Comrade Grumpy
Oct 2013
#80
We are supporting the United Nations, the African Union, and the governments
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#113
Sure, when they no longer hold territory, can no longer launch military offensives,
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#144
Not disloyal, no. It's more akin to isolationism, i.e. Somalia is someone else's
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#206
Well, that's kinda the thing. "an African conflict in no way involving the U.S."
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#271
So you don't think an Al Qaeda affiliate controlling the horn of Africa and the nearby
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#283
Sure, just like shooting German soldiers in WWII was just as bad as the Holocaust. nt
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#8
The rest of the world calls what the US is doing in Somalia "helping the UN"
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#145
the "Black Friday" movement is particularly scary, and sometimes violent nt
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#43
Maybe we can tell people there are clearance priced Xbox's behind al Shahab's lines
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#149
If a manned F16 was used to drop the bombs on them, would you feel the same way?
penultimate
Oct 2013
#23
A certain contingent of the pacificist left opposes any measure taken against
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#33
I object to neverending global aggression with too little oversight and diminishing returns.
Maedhros
Oct 2013
#173
Do you realize that the UN is pushing for a more aggressive military response to Al Shahab?
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#174
"It's sloppy, kills too many bystanders and has not proved to curtail "terrorist" activities."
EX500rider
Oct 2013
#217
well if they had surrendered to those navy SEALS a few weeks ago they'd have been arraigned in a Fed
arely staircase
Oct 2013
#122
No, what the US is doing is legal. It is in coordination with the United Nations.
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#141
I keep wondering why the NSA monitoring didn't prevent this mall attack?
MyNameGoesHere
Oct 2013
#11
Heck, it's challenging enough to believe the government of Somalia exists. (nt)
Posteritatis
Oct 2013
#32
Technically, there is sovereign territory there, so in terms of legal form it exists nt
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#34
Do you honestly believe we should set the bar with what the government of Somalia deems appropriate?
NoOneMan
Oct 2013
#36
We're not at war in Somalia, thus by definitiion we have no military targets there.
Maedhros
Oct 2013
#60
But we are NOT engaged in that conflict. If we were, we would have declared war.
Maedhros
Oct 2013
#81
"rules-of-engagement consider the "battlefield" to be the entire world at any time"
EX500rider
Oct 2013
#221
Just because we deem some place lawless should not give us carte blanche....
EX500rider
Oct 2013
#259
To threaten the United States a Yemeni or Somali "terrorist" would have to travel internationally.
Maedhros
Oct 2013
#265
I am unconvinced that you actually care about starving people other than as a rhetorical cudgel.
Maedhros
Oct 2013
#273
"by definition we have no military targets there. They are mass murdering criminals."
EX500rider
Oct 2013
#216
Any fool can launch a drone and THINK they are taking care of the problem
MyNameGoesHere
Oct 2013
#219
You know, you'd really better hope that "The Other Side" (de jour) isn't taking notes ...
Nihil
Oct 2013
#231
So, not content to object to attacking terrorists, now you object to blaming them
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#53
and the people in the mall were not JUST killed...they were tortured and mutilated...
VanillaRhapsody
Oct 2013
#108
You are not explaining the cause of terrorism and al Shahab, you're spinning it
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#168
"Which came first, U.S.government/corporate imperial interventions, or terrorism?"
EX500rider
Oct 2013
#256
Wow. Haven't seen an actual "terrorists are the real victims" narrative bandied around in awhile. nt
Posteritatis
Oct 2013
#58
Your are acting as an apologist for al Shahab by claiming that they are merely an oppressed
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#110
No kidding. Al Shahab was pushed into trying to conquer Somaliia and exterminate infidels
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#112
"Once terrorism has reached the point of suicide bombers, you have lost the fight."
EX500rider
Oct 2013
#223
"This would be about the time rescue workers-fireman, paramedics, good Samaritans"
EX500rider
Nov 2013
#290
"employing institutions with serious moral deficiencies" well yeah welcome
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#251
terrorism is sadly the weapon of the insanely religious fanatical death cults nt
arely staircase
Oct 2013
#123
People who talk about due process w/r/t Al Shahab have zero interest in actually
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#54
Insisting on an impossibility instead of meaningful action is indeed appeasement.
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#38
Maybe? We don't know. Has he been convicted of such in a court of law with a fair trial?
NoOneMan
Oct 2013
#75
What is the non-arbitrary threshold for when a terrorists' followers are too numerous for arrest?
NoOneMan
Oct 2013
#87
Conversely, under international law, is it permissible to use force to kill international criminals
NoOneMan
Oct 2013
#100
Ah, the old pacifist chestnut that it's illegal to kill anyone if their finger isn't on the trigger
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#107
Likewise, you act as if their unconventional nature allows the US to skirt all law in pursuit
NoOneMan
Oct 2013
#137
Somalia is a theater of war. An ironclad justification for shooting at them
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#138
Where is the US declaration of war on Somalia? Has this declaration been deemed permissible by...
NoOneMan
Oct 2013
#139
There is a war in Somalia, and al Shahab is one of the main parties in that war.
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#147
We have the tacit permission of their government, and stirkes against AQ/Taliban
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#156
So? I didn't ask if the US had permission. I asked if the extrajudicial killings there are legal
NoOneMan
Oct 2013
#159
I'd think that if a regime gave the US permission to torture its citizens, we could agree thats...
NoOneMan
Oct 2013
#161
Af-Pak is a war zone, so yeah the killings there tend to be extra-judicial nt
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#189
Guess you weren't paying attention the last time they tried that in Mogadishu, then. (nt)
Posteritatis
Oct 2013
#50
You then believe a trial of suspected terrorists would soothe the ruffled feathers of other terroris
LanternWaste
Oct 2013
#72
Feel free to point out where I said anything close to the statement you're replying to. (nt)
Posteritatis
Oct 2013
#73
I guess in retrospect they should have surrendered to the Navy SEALS when they had a chance
arely staircase
Oct 2013
#120
Yes, your condemnation of anyone who gives a fuck what happens to the people
geek tragedy
Oct 2013
#208