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Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)

284. It comes down to how cavalier you are with other people's lives

Thu Oct 31, 2013, 04:08 PM

Oct 2013

The U.S. is widely reported to "double tap" target with drones, i.e. send a second drone in ten or fifteen minutes after the first. This would be about the time rescue workers (fireman, paramedics, good Samaritans) are showing up, innocent people doing their job or trying to help, who die because the U.S. wants to be sure that they kill the person their questionable intelligence tells them are bad guys, and tells them where they are when they launch the drone.

Again, you are also conflating a WAR, with people in uniform, fighting other people in uniform, who work directly for a nation state and that nation state is DIRECTLY involved in hostile action against us, with a criminal act.

The proper analogy would be if the FBI used a drone to kill a mobster who they had been unable to arrest for whatever reason and blew up your house as well. I doubt you would really care what their "intentions" were if they killed your family in the process. Would you feel better because they didn't willfully murder your family while they acted in a reckless and illegal manner?

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US kills two top leaders of terror group that attacked Kenya mall [View all] dlwickham Oct 2013 OP

Good riddance. Military group butchers mall shoppers, gets geek tragedy Oct 2013 #1

Ditto. Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #3

Agreed dbackjon Oct 2013 #20

I don't think any Americans were killed. Comrade Grumpy Oct 2013 #78

How did we arrogate for ourselves the right to kill anybody anywhere on the planet? Comrade Grumpy Oct 2013 #80

We are supporting the United Nations, the African Union, and the governments geek tragedy Oct 2013 #113

War without end, amen. Octafish Oct 2013 #125

No, once Al Shahab is crushed that war is over. nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #127

Right you are. I suppose you'll know when that is? Octafish Oct 2013 #131

Sure, when they no longer hold territory, can no longer launch military offensives, geek tragedy Oct 2013 #144

Which is to say, you don't know when that is. Octafish Oct 2013 #157

Well, sure, there's certainly an element of the American left geek tragedy Oct 2013 #158

Do you believe that makes me disloyal? Octafish Oct 2013 #164

Not disloyal, no. It's more akin to isolationism, i.e. Somalia is someone else's geek tragedy Oct 2013 #206

But that's where you're wrong. The Stranger Oct 2013 #264

Yes, people think the US blowing up al shahab guys isn't acceptable geek tragedy Oct 2013 #266

Not even close. The Stranger Oct 2013 #270

Well, that's kinda the thing. "an African conflict in no way involving the U.S." geek tragedy Oct 2013 #271

Bullshit. The Stranger Oct 2013 #282

So you don't think an Al Qaeda affiliate controlling the horn of Africa and the nearby geek tragedy Oct 2013 #283

Well, that's where you're wrong again. The Stranger Oct 2013 #285

Not solely, but drone strikes on leadership happen for a reason. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #286

In January 2013, Ben Emmerson, ronnie624 Oct 2013 #236

It's an Associative Universe. Octafish Oct 2013 #262

The whole world is a war zone, forever. morningfog Oct 2013 #126

You oppose supporting the United Nations? nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #128

Al Qaeda affiliate. Multinational effort geek tragedy Oct 2013 #88

Yeah, "shit happens", right? nt ProudToBeBlueInRhody Oct 2013 #268

I'm sure that the PukeBaggers will complain... SoapBox Oct 2013 #2

And that's a good thing for it being Obama's fault. Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #5

Give credit where credit is due. Mz Pip Oct 2013 #6

should read.... bowens43 Oct 2013 #4

Murdered? Ranchemp. Oct 2013 #7

Sure, just like shooting German soldiers in WWII was just as bad as the Holocaust. nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #8

Should read, "in the continuing vicious cycle of terrorist violence" ... Coyotl Oct 2013 #9

Al Shahab are armed militants. Mall shoppers are mall shoppers. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #12

bingo! dlwickham Oct 2013 #14

I guess Post #4 comes from the "We're just as guilty as they are" wing of DU? 7962 Oct 2013 #16

Sad that someone actually has to point that out. (nt) Posteritatis Oct 2013 #28

Exactly. cosmicone Oct 2013 #44

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #52

The innocent victims Turbineguy Oct 2013 #74

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #109

war is hell and innocent people get hurt all the time cosmicone Oct 2013 #85

Sure, the drones are better for innocent people Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #111

So what is your solution? cosmicone Oct 2013 #124

The perpetually outraged have no solutions leftynyc Oct 2013 #132

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #178

Is that an admission of a lack of an alternate plan? cosmicone Oct 2013 #179

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #181

Nope, you got nothing but attacks on those geek tragedy Oct 2013 #228

The rest of the world calls what the US is doing in Somalia "helping the UN" geek tragedy Oct 2013 #145

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #180

So you all think killing terrorists is worse geek tragedy Oct 2013 #229

yeah but the mall shoppers weren't killed by drones arely staircase Oct 2013 #121

How is a mall shopper a terrorist? nt msanthrope Oct 2013 #18

damn you-I have so many snarky responses that I know would get me banned dlwickham Oct 2013 #27

the "Black Friday" movement is particularly scary, and sometimes violent nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #43

I was thinking along those same lines dlwickham Oct 2013 #148

Maybe we can tell people there are clearance priced Xbox's behind al Shahab's lines geek tragedy Oct 2013 #149

sounds like an idea dlwickham Oct 2013 #212

Heck, they go to Kenya geek tragedy Oct 2013 #215

from Hawaii to Kenya dlwickham Oct 2013 #220

Nope. That's all disinfo jberryhill Oct 2013 #277

thank you dlwickham Oct 2013 #279

Imagine the pain of explaining it jberryhill Oct 2013 #287

Those guys got off easy Mz Pip Oct 2013 #10

If a manned F16 was used to drop the bombs on them, would you feel the same way? penultimate Oct 2013 #23

A certain contingent of the pacificist left opposes any measure taken against geek tragedy Oct 2013 #33

Except, you know, not. (nt) Posteritatis Oct 2013 #26

No, bowens43, you don't have it quite right. Maedhros Oct 2013 #49

You should actually read the article. Might even learn something. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #57

I read the article, thank you. Maedhros Oct 2013 #59

So, would you support boots on the ground to capture these guys? penultimate Oct 2013 #64

If we are compelled to take action against mass murdering criminals Maedhros Oct 2013 #79

What does that ultimately mean? penultimate Oct 2013 #83

You really should learn the law before making such stupid arguments geek tragedy Oct 2013 #142

I see the use of drones as counterproductive in the "War on Terror." Maedhros Oct 2013 #165

So, you see drones as having a magical, talismanic property that makes geek tragedy Oct 2013 #166

No - they do not have magical properties. Maedhros Oct 2013 #169

So, it's air strikes on terrorists to which you object? geek tragedy Oct 2013 #171

I object to neverending global aggression with too little oversight and diminishing returns. Maedhros Oct 2013 #173

Do you realize that the UN is pushing for a more aggressive military response to Al Shahab? geek tragedy Oct 2013 #174

"It's sloppy, kills too many bystanders and has not proved to curtail "terrorist" activities." EX500rider Oct 2013 #217

They tried a snatch last week, didn't work. EX500rider Oct 2013 #70

There weren't 6000 McVeighs occupying geek tragedy Oct 2013 #71

Like I said: there is Rule of Law, and there is Might Makes Right. Maedhros Oct 2013 #77

well if they had surrendered to those navy SEALS a few weeks ago they'd have been arraigned in a Fed arely staircase Oct 2013 #122

No, what the US is doing is legal. It is in coordination with the United Nations. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #141

Oh, for fuck's sake. nt Codeine Oct 2013 #62

I wonder if the drone made people beg for their lives? ProudToBeBlueInRhody Oct 2013 #269

I keep wondering why the NSA monitoring didn't prevent this mall attack? MyNameGoesHere Oct 2013 #11

Al Shahab is at war with the sovereign government of Somalia, so doubtful geek tragedy Oct 2013 #13

Or a choice? MyNameGoesHere Oct 2013 #15

Do you honestly believe the government of Somalia geek tragedy Oct 2013 #17

Heck, it's challenging enough to believe the government of Somalia exists. (nt) Posteritatis Oct 2013 #32

Technically, there is sovereign territory there, so in terms of legal form it exists nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #34

Do you honestly believe we should set the bar with what the government of Somalia deems appropriate? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #36

Would you be happy if say MyNameGoesHere Oct 2013 #37

When the all of the USA east of the Misssissippi is occupied geek tragedy Oct 2013 #39

The Boston Bombers were from Somalia? Fumesucker Oct 2013 #94

What's Chechen for 'non sequitur?' nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #97

geek tragedy n/t Fumesucker Oct 2013 #98

Funny, that means "asshole" in English. nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #104

you should read up on Somalia JI7 Oct 2013 #19

There is no "sovereign government of Somalia", only competing factions Alamuti Lotus Oct 2013 #116

One is backed by the United Nations. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #130

According to this logic we shouldn't have police... ConservativeDemocrat Oct 2013 #21

According to your logic, we shouldn't have courts Maedhros Oct 2013 #47

Courts are for people who are taken into custody. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #55

We're not at war in Somalia, thus by definitiion we have no military targets there. Maedhros Oct 2013 #60

They are armed and engaged in military conflict. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #67

But we are NOT engaged in that conflict. If we were, we would have declared war. Maedhros Oct 2013 #81

They killed Americans, and attacked a US ally. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #86

Will you PLEASE stop this pkdu Oct 2013 #226

At least I didn't mention that Al Shahab is starving children geek tragedy Oct 2013 #227

"If we were, we would have declared war." EX500rider Oct 2013 #194

Yeah, I didn't think that through too well. Maedhros Oct 2013 #200

"rules-of-engagement consider the "battlefield" to be the entire world at any time" EX500rider Oct 2013 #221

"Lawless" does not equate to "a battlefield." [n/t] Maedhros Oct 2013 #225

Just because we deem some place lawless should not give us carte blanche.... EX500rider Oct 2013 #259

Who appointed us World Police? Maedhros Oct 2013 #261

"The Red Brigades and the Bader-Meinhof Gang" EX500rider Oct 2013 #263

To threaten the United States a Yemeni or Somali "terrorist" would have to travel internationally. Maedhros Oct 2013 #265

Right, to hell with the masses of starving... EX500rider Oct 2013 #272

I am unconvinced that you actually care about starving people other than as a rhetorical cudgel. Maedhros Oct 2013 #273

The Authorization to Use Military Force declares war ConservativeDemocrat Oct 2013 #260

"by definition we have no military targets there. They are mass murdering criminals." EX500rider Oct 2013 #216

Bravo! n/t cosmicone Oct 2013 #48

I can understand your MyNameGoesHere Oct 2013 #99

"Doing the right thing is so passe these days. It's just hard. Hard work." EX500rider Oct 2013 #218

Any fool can launch a drone and THINK they are taking care of the problem MyNameGoesHere Oct 2013 #219

Actually killing the tech guys and leaders.. EX500rider Oct 2013 #222

Yes 12 years in and it is working great.. MyNameGoesHere Oct 2013 #224

"we find the cause of it" EX500rider Oct 2013 #254

You know, you'd really better hope that "The Other Side" (de jour) isn't taking notes ... Nihil Oct 2013 #231

Well the Taliban, Al Queda and al-Shabaab are free to try.. EX500rider Oct 2013 #247

Don't know about al-Shabaab's capabilities ... Nihil Oct 2013 #281

"Blowback: It's a real bastard when you're on the receiving end." EX500rider Nov 2013 #289

adios mofos mitchtv Oct 2013 #22

Good news. good riddance al-Shabaab scum rollin74 Oct 2013 #24

And of course Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #25

The alternative is doing nothing but sending them sternly worded letters. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #30

Really? Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #46

So, not content to object to attacking terrorists, now you object to blaming them geek tragedy Oct 2013 #53

You dodge the point Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #101

Nothing you wrote is relevant to Al shahab's campaign geek tragedy Oct 2013 #102

and the people in the mall were not JUST killed...they were tortured and mutilated... VanillaRhapsody Oct 2013 #108

Oh Kevin Mace. tblue Oct 2013 #119

And the rest of thought we had landed in Lala land... EX500rider Oct 2013 #253

Double secret probation, and tell 'em. Then they'll know they're fucked. Kennah Oct 2013 #117

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #182

No, the fallacy is from you "let al shahab do whatever it wants" geek tragedy Oct 2013 #183

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #186

Okay, superprogressive genius all-star, what's your nonviolent solution geek tragedy Oct 2013 #187

At least you are on a better path now Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #190

So, there isn't an actual nonviolent solution as far as you know. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #192

This message was self-deleted by its author Cronus Protagonist Oct 2013 #238

In other words, you can't think of a nonviolent solution geek tragedy Oct 2013 #239

Due process is so pre-9/11. Maedhros Oct 2013 #45

*sigh* Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #51

Your whitewashing of al Shahab's motive is appalingly ignorant. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #56

Possibly true, Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #133

Ok, when you actually know something about geek tragedy Oct 2013 #134

When you actually know something about the Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #135

I know US history quite well. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #136

I am not an "apologist" Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #167

You are not explaining the cause of terrorism and al Shahab, you're spinning it geek tragedy Oct 2013 #168

Cause and effect - Somalia is a product of imperial policies Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #172

Do you support the UN's goal of militarily defeating Al Shahab? geek tragedy Oct 2013 #175

The UN at least has some legitimacy Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #197

Your answer on the UN was all over the place. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #198

Actually, Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #199

The US is doing what the UN is asking for. So the answer must be geek tragedy Oct 2013 #202

You are correct Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #232

There is not a single intelligent person who doubts geek tragedy Oct 2013 #233

"Somalia is a product of imperial policies" EX500rider Oct 2013 #258

And who stepped in, playing one group off the other Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #275

"Which came first, U.S.government/corporate imperial interventions, or terrorism?" EX500rider Oct 2013 #256

Somalia has been a vassal state and then a pawn of the cold war for Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #274

"If the U.S. wants to stop terrorism..... EX500rider Nov 2013 #295

You keep jumping around Kelvin Mace Nov 2013 #296

Wow. Haven't seen an actual "terrorists are the real victims" narrative bandied around in awhile. nt Posteritatis Oct 2013 #58

Please point to where I said that Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #95

Your are acting as an apologist for al Shahab by claiming that they are merely an oppressed geek tragedy Oct 2013 #110

No kidding. Al Shahab was pushed into trying to conquer Somaliia and exterminate infidels geek tragedy Oct 2013 #112

Terrorism is merely another tool for war... LanternWaste Oct 2013 #69

Let me clarify then Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #92

"Once terrorism has reached the point of suicide bombers, you have lost the fight." EX500rider Oct 2013 #223

Terrorism worked for the IRA Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #242

I didn't say terroism never worked... EX500rider Oct 2013 #245

No, the side that pushes people to suicide bombing has lost Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #249

"Suicide bombing is the third world response to "shock and awe"" EX500rider Oct 2013 #252

Not what I said... Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #278

Well 1st you have to decide.. EX500rider Oct 2013 #280

It comes down to how cavalier you are with other people's lives Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #284

"This would be about the time rescue workers-fireman, paramedics, good Samaritans" EX500rider Nov 2013 #290

Using it at all is wrong Kelvin Mace Nov 2013 #291

Kinda depends... EX500rider Nov 2013 #292

Again, you ducked the more apt comparison Kelvin Mace Nov 2013 #293

Only apt if you think... EX500rider Nov 2013 #294

I didn't ask you if you would be happy the drones arrived Kelvin Mace Nov 2013 #297

Yeah, the kamikazes proved that the US had geek tragedy Oct 2013 #230

Apples and oranges Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #234

So, then so long as we're willing to kill every al shahab that exists, geek tragedy Oct 2013 #235

Yes, that or Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #240

I have answered your questions. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #241

So, your answer is, I believe what I am told Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #243

No, the answer is that I don't need the US military to tell geek tragedy Oct 2013 #244

But you are OK with using Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #246

Oh, so your issue with me is that I don't hate the US military. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #248

Actually the issue I was using was "trust" Kelvin Mace Oct 2013 #250

"employing institutions with serious moral deficiencies" well yeah welcome geek tragedy Oct 2013 #251

terrorism is sadly the weapon of the insanely religious fanatical death cults nt arely staircase Oct 2013 #123

People who talk about due process w/r/t Al Shahab have zero interest in actually geek tragedy Oct 2013 #54

One either believes in the rule of law, or in "might makes right." [n/t] Maedhros Oct 2013 #61

Rule of criminal procedure covers unarmed people in custody, geek tragedy Oct 2013 #68

At last, a voice of dispassionate reason. tblue Oct 2013 #118

Do you support the United Nations in its efforts to defeat Al Shahab? geek tragedy Oct 2013 #143

Legal trials suck monkey balls NoOneMan Oct 2013 #29

Avoid inconveniencing al Shahab! Let them kill as much as they want! geek tragedy Oct 2013 #31

A legal trial is now appeasement? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #35

Insisting on an impossibility instead of meaningful action is indeed appeasement. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #38

Maybe we need to rethink that military budget NoOneMan Oct 2013 #40

So, you propose invading Somalia to capture them? geek tragedy Oct 2013 #41

What is the price of law and justice? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #63

Killing al Shahab is perfectly legal. They are combatants. Nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #66

Maybe? We don't know. Has he been convicted of such in a court of law with a fair trial? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #75

Courts of law don't determine who is party to geek tragedy Oct 2013 #76

Is funny how all this weasel wording is developed to relabel terrorist NoOneMan Oct 2013 #82

Terrorists, yes. Entire armies, no. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #84

What is the non-arbitrary threshold for when a terrorists' followers are too numerous for arrest? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #87

The line is way below an armed and organized force geek tragedy Oct 2013 #89

Just point to the law please NoOneMan Oct 2013 #90

It's a subsection of the law that permits geek tragedy Oct 2013 #91

Yes. "Sufficient numbers". Where is the non-arbitrary definition of such NoOneMan Oct 2013 #93

The relevant law is the AUMF of 2001. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #96

Conversely, under international law, is it permissible to use force to kill international criminals NoOneMan Oct 2013 #100

If they're armed and engaged on armed attacks, yes. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #103

Were they when the drone fired at them? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #105

Ah, the old pacifist chestnut that it's illegal to kill anyone if their finger isn't on the trigger geek tragedy Oct 2013 #107

Oh. You mean Japanese soldiers in WWII? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #115

You act as of being an illegal unconventional geek tragedy Oct 2013 #129

Likewise, you act as if their unconventional nature allows the US to skirt all law in pursuit NoOneMan Oct 2013 #137

Somalia is a theater of war. An ironclad justification for shooting at them geek tragedy Oct 2013 #138

Where is the US declaration of war on Somalia? Has this declaration been deemed permissible by... NoOneMan Oct 2013 #139

The US is aiding United Nations efforts to defeat al Shahab. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #140

"dishonest question" NoOneMan Oct 2013 #146

There is a war in Somalia, and al Shahab is one of the main parties in that war. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #147

So just Somalia then? Not Pakistan? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #150

Changing the subject now that your complaints abou tthis action have geek tragedy Oct 2013 #151

I'm trying to figure out if your grounds are groundless NoOneMan Oct 2013 #152

In other words, yes you are changing the subject because it turns geek tragedy Oct 2013 #154

So Pakistan? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #155

We have the tacit permission of their government, and stirkes against AQ/Taliban geek tragedy Oct 2013 #156

So? I didn't ask if the US had permission. I asked if the extrajudicial killings there are legal NoOneMan Oct 2013 #159

Permission=legal. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #160

I'd think that if a regime gave the US permission to torture its citizens, we could agree thats... NoOneMan Oct 2013 #161

Playing Calvinball again. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #162

"Permission=legal" NoOneMan Oct 2013 #163

No, bin Laden was the commander of al qaeda when he was taken out. geek tragedy Oct 2013 #184

He is the on extrajudicial killing in Pakistan? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #188

Af-Pak is a war zone, so yeah the killings there tend to be extra-judicial nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #189

Were at war with Pakistan? NoOneMan Oct 2013 #191

I'll admit that you've worn me down with your repetition geek tragedy Oct 2013 #193

Guess you weren't paying attention the last time they tried that in Mogadishu, then. (nt) Posteritatis Oct 2013 #50

You then believe a trial of suspected terrorists would soothe the ruffled feathers of other terroris LanternWaste Oct 2013 #72

Feel free to point out where I said anything close to the statement you're replying to. (nt) Posteritatis Oct 2013 #73

Go drones!! cosmicone Oct 2013 #42

The cycle of violence continues... Ash_F Oct 2013 #65

Good! Kaleva Oct 2013 #106

Took the word right out of my mouth. n/t Adsos Letter Oct 2013 #114

I guess in retrospect they should have surrendered to the Navy SEALS when they had a chance arely staircase Oct 2013 #120

Al-Shabaab shot first. riqster Oct 2013 #153

and bulldozing Iraqi soldiers to death in their trenches was fair game reddread Oct 2013 #170

So, you're in the "let al shahab win" camp geek tragedy Oct 2013 #185

garbage reddread Oct 2013 #201

So, just to be clear, you oppose any US use of force to help the UN geek tragedy Oct 2013 #203

are you still hoping to speak for me? reddread Oct 2013 #204

you were certainly willing to speak for other people yourself geek tragedy Oct 2013 #205

yeah, what grade level reading comprehension were you able to make it to? reddread Oct 2013 #207

Yes, your condemnation of anyone who gives a fuck what happens to the people geek tragedy Oct 2013 #208

johnee jingo reddread Oct 2013 #209

Neville Notmyproblem geek tragedy Oct 2013 #210

Joseph Kennedy reddread Oct 2013 #213

A wide range of outcomes. Violence solved the problem of Nazi Germany nt geek tragedy Oct 2013 #214

USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! kiawah Oct 2013 #176

To kill a terrorist is to play his game. burnsei sensei Oct 2013 #177

"I wish they had been apprehended." EX500rider Oct 2013 #196

The Mosad apprehended the criminal Eichmann quite handily. burnsei sensei Oct 2013 #255

Right, 'cause a lone man in Argentina... EX500rider Oct 2013 #257

One advantage terrorists have taken over the years is being burnsei sensei Oct 2013 #276

Eichmann? Seriously? RZM Oct 2013 #267

awesome job beachbum bob Oct 2013 #195

President Obama has a lot of notches in his gun! Mysterysouppe Oct 2013 #211

Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2013 #237

Good job, Droney! tabasco Oct 2013 #288