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rogerashton

(3,920 posts)
30. Authorities
Sun Jul 27, 2014, 07:23 AM
Jul 2014

Let me cite two writers who might be said to have authority (of very different kinds!) on the subject. Engels wrote, "But of late, since Bismarck went in for State-ownership of industrial establishments, a kind of spurious Socialism has arisen, ..., that without more ado declares all State-ownership, even of the Bismarkian sort, to be socialistic." (Socialism, Utopian and Scientific, Ch. III, note 4.) But, to cite another great socialist, the Fabian and Nobel Laureate economist Sir Arthur Lewis, (Principles of Economic Planning) government management of the economy is not an objective of socialism but rather the means to the objective of socialism. The objective, as Lewis says and Engels would surely agree, is a classless society -- the liberation of the working class from its colony-like dependence on the rich.

Rand Paul said, a few years back, that opposition to the rich is irrational. After all, he said, we all are either working for them or selling something to them. Right, that's exactly what socialists oppose. But it also is biased and deceptive. For the most part, working people produce goods for the use of other working people, not for the rich. But we produce them under conditions of "alienated labor," which means that the goods we produce are the property of the rich employers -- who then sell them back to the working class at a profit. The meaning of "production for use" is that the capitalist middlemen should be cut out of the exchange.

Dumb question: what's a Socialist? [View all] MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 OP
Black guy from Kenya? Scuba Jul 2014 #1
One who believes society is the greatest good. nt Xipe Totec Jul 2014 #2
But... wouldn't a Capitalist say that Capitalism is about the greatest good for Society? MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #3
Capitalism is the philosophy that asserts: Xipe Totec Jul 2014 #5
I had no idea that Keynes was a fan of Voltaire. redruddyred Oct 2014 #60
And evidently, you are a fan of sarcasm. nt Xipe Totec Oct 2014 #62
no for reals. redruddyred Oct 2014 #63
You have me at a disadvantege, then. Please explain the Voltaire connection Xipe Totec Oct 2014 #64
"the best of all possible worlds" redruddyred Oct 2014 #65
Socialism has the focus on the General Welfare. Enthusiast Jul 2014 #27
It's whatever Rush Limbaugh doesn't like. Jackpine Radical Jul 2014 #4
Then I am a PROUD Socialist, damn, you bet! MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #11
Well, the term "oxy-moron" Jackpine Radical Jul 2014 #13
This is hidey-hole? Enthusiast Jul 2014 #28
I'm more of an anarchist as well - TBF Jul 2014 #19
I love how morons on the right conflate socialists with Nazis redruddyred Oct 2014 #61
Rather than "socialist person" or "socialist country", I think "socialist program". delrem Jul 2014 #6
I like the concept MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #8
Something like that. delrem Jul 2014 #10
OK, EarlG debunks your "right-wing is very strong" TBF Jul 2014 #57
I don't know if this will answer all of your questions, TexasTowelie Jul 2014 #7
LOL, this is the First-Way persona MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #9
Read the Communist Manifesto BainsBane Jul 2014 #12
I'll give it a whirl. MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #14
Here is the link - TBF Jul 2014 #18
Thanks, much appreciated! MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #20
That doesn't seem to reflect the contemporary understanding of the term. Jim Lane Jul 2014 #33
What part of "workers owning the means of production" TBF Jul 2014 #34
What part of "the contemporary understanding of the term" do you not understand? Jim Lane Jul 2014 #36
Your "contemporary understanding" of the term TBF Jul 2014 #37
OK, now you've completely lost me. Jim Lane Jul 2014 #39
You took my very basic definitions TBF Jul 2014 #43
More on the Commune - TBF Jul 2014 #54
wrong about rogerashton Jul 2014 #59
It's groundwork Scootaloo Jul 2014 #51
Sigh. nt TBF Jul 2014 #56
IMO the total elimination of capitalism is neither possible, nor a goal worth pursuing. nt delrem Jul 2014 #15
This message was self-deleted by its author TexasTowelie Jul 2014 #16
This was posted on DU before, but it contains some aspects of both socialism and communism in it. TexasTowelie Jul 2014 #17
You know the old saying: PETRUS Jul 2014 #21
Wiki did your hard work. easychoice Jul 2014 #22
I did read that before I posted MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #23
That graf looks good to me. Jim Lane Jul 2014 #38
All that means AFAIC, is that..... socialist_n_TN Jul 2014 #40
perhaps easier to say what it's not? And that is what we are living through/in. NRaleighLiberal Jul 2014 #24
Anyone barely left center-right now villager Jul 2014 #25
I have sorted it out. Enthusiast Jul 2014 #26
Not exactly - TBF Jul 2014 #31
Many of us would be satisfied with some reasonable oversight and regulation. Enthusiast Jul 2014 #42
I know what you're saying - TBF Jul 2014 #44
That's easy, a socialist is ... Kablooie Jul 2014 #29
Authorities rogerashton Jul 2014 #30
I always like your posts. ctsnowman Jul 2014 #32
Awww... Shucks... MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #46
Since this thread has made it to the greatest page TBF Jul 2014 #35
Sorry for the trouble! nt MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #47
No worries - TBF Jul 2014 #48
That's not really a dumb question, but it IS a very complex question... socialist_n_TN Jul 2014 #41
Not a dumb question. Starry Messenger Jul 2014 #45
I reduce it to "one who wants to eliminate private property." joshcryer Jul 2014 #49
As long as you explain the difference between private and personal TBF Jul 2014 #55
I don't initially. joshcryer Jul 2014 #58
Im a member of Socialist Alternative octoberlib Jul 2014 #50
The best understanding of Socialism comes from reading Marx and Engels. Oakenshield Jul 2014 #52
... TBF Jul 2014 #53
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