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In reply to the discussion: STOCK MARKET WATCH -- Wednesday, 24 September 2014 [View all]Demeter
(85,373 posts)7. This is your brain on narcissism: The truth about a disorder that nobody really understands
http://www.salon.com/2014/09/20/this_is_your_brain_about_narcissism_the_truth_about_a_disorder_that_nobody_really_understands/?source=newsletter
In Greco-Roman myth, Narcissus, a beautiful young man, catches sight of his reflection in a body of water and falls deeply in love with his own image. This is, of course, where we get the word narcissism. What many in todays culture overlook when tossing around the term narcissism, explains Jeffrey Kluger, author of The Narcissist Next Door, is that it is actually a clinical personality disorder affecting 1 to 3 percent of the population. Klugers book goes beyond cautionary tales of narcissism like that of Narcissus and explores how the disorder affects daily life, relationships, government, Hollywood, sports and elsewhere...(Narcissism is a) very widely used word culturally, a bit of a shorthand to describe all kinds of behavioral phenomena...(being) far too self-absorbed, having far too much of a sense of entitlement, being far too uninterested in listening...
Is there a correct amount of narcissism?
Theres no sort of fever chart where, below (this level), you are a healthy narcissist, or above (this level) you are an unhealthy narcissist...there is a level of narcissism that energizes and motivates, that makes you creative, that makes you particularly value the reward of recognition, but not become drunk off that reward of recognition. And it can be very, very beneficial. The level of narcissism that helps you step forward with confidence and tell your ideas in an engaging and charismatic way can be really helpful...Whatever else people may like or dislike about Bill Clinton, the man can work a room like nobodys business, because he wants to be recognized, he wants to make a difference. Even if we dont necessarily respect the gratification hes getting from that the narcissistic gratification hes getting from that the fact is that hes doing to make a difference, to make the word a better place. So, you know it depends on what your larger goal is and how youre deploying those talents to achieve it.
What were some of the most interesting examples of extreme narcissism that you found when writing your book?
Well I certainly think you see it at almost epidemic levels in politicians. Richard Nixon was clearly suffering from mass-model narcissism, a level of grandiosity that conceals its direct opposite. It is often the case when youre simultaneously trying to reconcile those two incompatible world views Im the best and Im the worst that you can generally engineer your own destruction that way...Clinton did that in a much smaller way. Good lord. He knew that if there was one thing his enemies were lying in wait for when he took office, it was the sex scandal. So he went right ahead and served it up to them, because he was incapable of controlling his own lack of narcissistic impulse control. Incapable of seeing something he wanted and denying himself that. So hes a very good example of that...Lyndon Johnson is a terrific and terrible example of narcissism with his monomaniacal prosecution of the Vietnam war, and his inability to stand down from it because his point was peace with honor, and I wont be the first American president to lose a war. You may have to sit with that historical fate, in order to save the lives of 58,000 Americans. So clearly Johnson was a terrible, quite literally bloody, example, even if that wasnt his intention...We see it in less consequential ways with people like Justin Bieber. You cant look away from Justin Bieber, because hes an unfolding train-wreck.So you know we see these examples of people who do great damage to the world, or damage to themselves by not being able to keep their narcissistic demons under control.
...Do you think that there needs to be greater awareness that this is something that people should get treated in some way? Or at least recognize? Or is it even possible to recognize and treat?
...personality disorders like narcissism, paranoia, histrionic personality disorder and borderline personality disorders are what is called egosyntonic. You think youre not narcissistic, you really are better. Youre not paranoid, there really are people who are after you. So until you get over that belief, until you can stop fighting on behalf of your disorder, youre never going to get into a psychologists office in the first place. And I also think that for a lot of narcissists, they only get there under duress, and when they get there they still believe that they are smarter than the shrink, and theyre only there because nobody understands them. And they fire the doctor very quickly and go on and continue to make a mess of their lives and the lives of the people around them. So, I agree with you that greater awareness of this as a clinical personality disorder is necessary. But I fear that no amount of banging narcissists over the head with evidence of their issues is going to make a difference, as opposed to someone with OCD or anxiety.
...Theres narcissism of the individual and theres narcissism of the group, and in both cases its essentially the same thing. We are better, we are more entitled, we are different or at least less interested in the people around us, or the tribes or nations around us, because were worthier than they are. Our people are the prettiest, our language is the most musical, our clothes are the most stylish. And these people are barbarians or at the very best civilized but crude. We are deserving of resources just as I, as the individual, am deserving of the raise, or deserving of the job or deserving of the hottest girl at the party because Im better than the other guys around me. Now this has its benign expression in sport, except when people are killed, in soccer brawls or when a fan of the San Francisco Giants is beaten up in a parking lot by a Dodgers fan. Obviously it can get ugly sometimes...almost all that behavior comes from pain. Almost all of that behavior comes from some kind of internal suffering. So, Id like to have Kanye Wests money and his fame and his privilege, but whatever drives those self-adoring demons cant feel that great. The same is true of anyone. Anyone who is so tormented by internal doubt and a private personal history that affects the way you behave I wouldnt want to feel the pain the raging narcissist feels.
MORE---THE DISEASE OF THE AGES AND THE EMPIRES
In Greco-Roman myth, Narcissus, a beautiful young man, catches sight of his reflection in a body of water and falls deeply in love with his own image. This is, of course, where we get the word narcissism. What many in todays culture overlook when tossing around the term narcissism, explains Jeffrey Kluger, author of The Narcissist Next Door, is that it is actually a clinical personality disorder affecting 1 to 3 percent of the population. Klugers book goes beyond cautionary tales of narcissism like that of Narcissus and explores how the disorder affects daily life, relationships, government, Hollywood, sports and elsewhere...(Narcissism is a) very widely used word culturally, a bit of a shorthand to describe all kinds of behavioral phenomena...(being) far too self-absorbed, having far too much of a sense of entitlement, being far too uninterested in listening...
Is there a correct amount of narcissism?
Theres no sort of fever chart where, below (this level), you are a healthy narcissist, or above (this level) you are an unhealthy narcissist...there is a level of narcissism that energizes and motivates, that makes you creative, that makes you particularly value the reward of recognition, but not become drunk off that reward of recognition. And it can be very, very beneficial. The level of narcissism that helps you step forward with confidence and tell your ideas in an engaging and charismatic way can be really helpful...Whatever else people may like or dislike about Bill Clinton, the man can work a room like nobodys business, because he wants to be recognized, he wants to make a difference. Even if we dont necessarily respect the gratification hes getting from that the narcissistic gratification hes getting from that the fact is that hes doing to make a difference, to make the word a better place. So, you know it depends on what your larger goal is and how youre deploying those talents to achieve it.
What were some of the most interesting examples of extreme narcissism that you found when writing your book?
Well I certainly think you see it at almost epidemic levels in politicians. Richard Nixon was clearly suffering from mass-model narcissism, a level of grandiosity that conceals its direct opposite. It is often the case when youre simultaneously trying to reconcile those two incompatible world views Im the best and Im the worst that you can generally engineer your own destruction that way...Clinton did that in a much smaller way. Good lord. He knew that if there was one thing his enemies were lying in wait for when he took office, it was the sex scandal. So he went right ahead and served it up to them, because he was incapable of controlling his own lack of narcissistic impulse control. Incapable of seeing something he wanted and denying himself that. So hes a very good example of that...Lyndon Johnson is a terrific and terrible example of narcissism with his monomaniacal prosecution of the Vietnam war, and his inability to stand down from it because his point was peace with honor, and I wont be the first American president to lose a war. You may have to sit with that historical fate, in order to save the lives of 58,000 Americans. So clearly Johnson was a terrible, quite literally bloody, example, even if that wasnt his intention...We see it in less consequential ways with people like Justin Bieber. You cant look away from Justin Bieber, because hes an unfolding train-wreck.So you know we see these examples of people who do great damage to the world, or damage to themselves by not being able to keep their narcissistic demons under control.
...Do you think that there needs to be greater awareness that this is something that people should get treated in some way? Or at least recognize? Or is it even possible to recognize and treat?
...personality disorders like narcissism, paranoia, histrionic personality disorder and borderline personality disorders are what is called egosyntonic. You think youre not narcissistic, you really are better. Youre not paranoid, there really are people who are after you. So until you get over that belief, until you can stop fighting on behalf of your disorder, youre never going to get into a psychologists office in the first place. And I also think that for a lot of narcissists, they only get there under duress, and when they get there they still believe that they are smarter than the shrink, and theyre only there because nobody understands them. And they fire the doctor very quickly and go on and continue to make a mess of their lives and the lives of the people around them. So, I agree with you that greater awareness of this as a clinical personality disorder is necessary. But I fear that no amount of banging narcissists over the head with evidence of their issues is going to make a difference, as opposed to someone with OCD or anxiety.
...Theres narcissism of the individual and theres narcissism of the group, and in both cases its essentially the same thing. We are better, we are more entitled, we are different or at least less interested in the people around us, or the tribes or nations around us, because were worthier than they are. Our people are the prettiest, our language is the most musical, our clothes are the most stylish. And these people are barbarians or at the very best civilized but crude. We are deserving of resources just as I, as the individual, am deserving of the raise, or deserving of the job or deserving of the hottest girl at the party because Im better than the other guys around me. Now this has its benign expression in sport, except when people are killed, in soccer brawls or when a fan of the San Francisco Giants is beaten up in a parking lot by a Dodgers fan. Obviously it can get ugly sometimes...almost all that behavior comes from pain. Almost all of that behavior comes from some kind of internal suffering. So, Id like to have Kanye Wests money and his fame and his privilege, but whatever drives those self-adoring demons cant feel that great. The same is true of anyone. Anyone who is so tormented by internal doubt and a private personal history that affects the way you behave I wouldnt want to feel the pain the raging narcissist feels.
MORE---THE DISEASE OF THE AGES AND THE EMPIRES
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