Environment & Energy

joshcryer

(62,269 posts)

43. The US is not the metric for more energy consumption.

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 07:35 AM

Jan 2013

We've been effectively flat for 50+ years.

Being more efficient has allowed us to outsource our efficiency and is directly related to artificially high population rates in the developing world. We need bodies to make our shit. Try making that shit locally, it doesn't work, the energy required to do it would show that overall, as our technological civilization as a whole, and not confined to one nation, is going up.

I would agree, however, if the totality of society all grew at the same rate (technologically, culturally, democratically, sociologically) the Jevons Paradox wouldn't work. But it's constrained by current civilization since said civilization inherently relies on countries developing and relying on our efficiency improvements to provide them with resources that are less efficient (an example would be coal exports).

edit: Here's how we off-shored our technological development:

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64 replies

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The Jevons Paradox is bullshit. [View all] wtmusic Jan 2013 OP

It sounds like a 75% reduction in population would then save us ............ Angry Dragon Jan 2013 #1

It wouldn't hurt. wtmusic Jan 2013 #2

"but there is hope" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #3

I hope so. wtmusic Jan 2013 #4

That's quite some faith you have NoOneMan Jan 2013 #5

It simplifies the problem to one of controlling population wtmusic Jan 2013 #6

If we wanted to simplify the problem, pretending it doesn't exist may be easier NoOneMan Jan 2013 #7

Sorry this good news peeves you so badly wtmusic Jan 2013 #10

Its non-news. Its fiction in the manner its being applied. You don't know what you are talking about NoOneMan Jan 2013 #12

BTW, where should we start? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #8

There are about 5 billion people that are in fact hell-bent on consumption GliderGuider Jan 2013 #14

You seem to be intent on proving yourself wrong. wtmusic Jan 2013 #17

You claimed that it's not a consumption problem, it's a population problem GliderGuider Jan 2013 #20

Who said it's not a consumption problem? wtmusic Jan 2013 #23

"The point is that increasing energy efficiency makes consumption go down" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #24

Only because our population keeps going up. wtmusic Jan 2013 #26

So it did or it didn't? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #30

Do you understand what "per capita" means? wtmusic Jan 2013 #34

"Per capita consumption...went down. " NoOneMan Jan 2013 #37

No, it's that you either don't understand or are being obtuse. wtmusic Jan 2013 #40

"The US went down" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #42

It may make the consumption of energy go down in the USA GliderGuider Jan 2013 #32

Using "lust" in reference to Al Gore's yacht wtmusic Jan 2013 #36

trust me... Big Bird has been around professing myth fascisthunter Jan 2013 #29

"Thirty-two years later, with all of their iPhones, flat-screen TVs,....." NoOneMan Jan 2013 #9

You're looking at total, I'm looking at per capita. wtmusic Jan 2013 #11

Why are you looking at per capita energy consumption? What does Jevon's Paradox say about it? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #13

Um...societies can't have babies. wtmusic Jan 2013 #15

"I've shown that energy consumption is almost entirely related to population growth" NoOneMan Jan 2013 #16

9%. wtmusic Jan 2013 #18

Please retire the bad, poor Indian breeder crap NoOneMan Jan 2013 #19

Per capita energy use in India is increasing wtmusic Jan 2013 #21

Because they are using the energy freed up by our efficient innovations, and adopting them as well! NoOneMan Jan 2013 #22

How would being less efficient aid in our "keeping them down"? wtmusic Jan 2013 #25

If we burned twice as much energy, do you think the market would take notice? NoOneMan Jan 2013 #28

"Growth" is a tricky word. wtmusic Jan 2013 #33

Why, it certainly has correlated to growth in consumption within the global context NoOneMan Jan 2013 #35

You can't assume that from the numbers wtmusic Jan 2013 #38

The numbers imply a clear correlation NoOneMan Jan 2013 #39

What industrial revolutions are you referring to? wtmusic Jan 2013 #41

OK, let's look at per capita energy consumption. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #27

The rest of the world is more efficient than the US wtmusic Jan 2013 #31

That's another good way to muddle the argument. joshcryer Jan 2013 #44

Do you believe that a free transfer of technology is fair? nt wtmusic Jan 2013 #49

Yes. joshcryer Jan 2013 #59

The US is not the metric for more energy consumption. joshcryer Jan 2013 #43

That second graphic really tells the tale. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #45

Lest we forget Norman Borlaug's technological efficiencies. joshcryer Jan 2013 #46

It's never just one thing The2ndWheel Jan 2013 #47

+1 wtmusic Jan 2013 #51

I don't know if they're the enemy or not The2ndWheel Jan 2013 #52

Very succinct and on point. GliderGuider Jan 2013 #53

We'll keep fixing the problems of yesterday's solutions until we can't NoOneMan Jan 2013 #54

There are two options: Business-As-Usual, and Not-Business-As-Usual. wtmusic Jan 2013 #60

I do not believe efficiency and technology are the enemy. joshcryer Jan 2013 #58

World economies don't need capitalism to grow and consume energy NoOneMan Jan 2013 #63

I dispute that. The world is moving toward state monopoly capitalism. joshcryer Jan 2013 #64

Sure, but that's muddling the argument further. joshcryer Jan 2013 #57

Claiming efficiency is the cause of population growth is silly. wtmusic Jan 2013 #48

You seriously want me to believe India's population... joshcryer Jan 2013 #55

It definitely wouldn't have doubled without sex, wtmusic Jan 2013 #61

I think technological sharing has a bigger effect. joshcryer Jan 2013 #62

Don't forget the outsourcing of wealth, healthcare, and standard of living wtmusic Jan 2013 #50

You redundantly stated "standard of living." joshcryer Jan 2013 #56