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DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
51. It's a fascinating lie to protect shady American gun sellers.
Mon Jul 2, 2012, 02:06 AM
Jul 2012

So, the reality, as the article points out, is that it is virtually impossible to stop gun traffic into Mexico, because most of what constitutes gun trafficking is actually legal, thanks to the overwhelming success of pro-gun lobbyists. ATF agents, already hampered and largely defanged by the relentless "jackbooted thugs" campaign carried on by the NRA, went as far as New York to try to get the obvious trafficking they were witnessing prosecuted. But they couldn't. It's not illegal for an 18-yr-old to, say buy $20,000 in weaponry, repeatedly, on the theory it might be for "personal use," and then sell them all the next day having "changed his mind."

So, the reality is that gun laws are so weak that Mexico is flooded with American guns in a process that essentially isn't illegal, because gun rights are so broad here. That's what's actually happening. ATF can't arrest anyone because you basically would have to witness someone saying, "Here, let me illegally traffic this firearm to you, hahahahahahaha!"

The conspiracy theory cooked up to deal with this is a gob-smacking piece of cognitively dissonant genius. It's just so bald-faced nuts that it makes perfect sense, if you just invert reason entirely. You just have to believe that law enforcement agents never wanted to do their jobs, bust people and stop weapons trafficking -- how naive! Nooo, they wanted to FAIL, so gun trafficking would get bad, so we'd all THINK we needed better enforcements and / or legislation. Because law enforcement agents think like that, and readily agree to engage in complex conspiracies involving deliberately letting their comrades be murdered, just to please President Obama and his secretly anti-gun stance that he has never revealed in speech or policy. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHA!

Wow. This is exactly the same flavor of proving-something-via-its-utter-nonexistence that NRA President / gibbering nutwad Wayne Lapierre introduced a while back, where Obama has been soft on gun control, BECAUSE HE WANTS TO BE HARD ON GUN CONTROL!!

It's perfect logic, if you're insane. And the best part is yet to come. You see, as soon as it sort of sinks in that the ATF was actually (gasp) trying to do its job, and not pretending to not be able to do its job in order to ... TAKE OUR GUNS! someone will be tempted to suggest that maybe we need some kind of database to track gun sales, instead of those boxes of forms the article talks about agents having to painstakingly review by hand. Or, maybe there could be some kind of limit on large sales to individuals. Or something. Anything. But they won't be able to, because as soon as anyone tries, a trillion screaming NRA acolytes will shout ...

AHA! WE KNEW IT! Look at the gun grabbers, using the ATF's "fake" failure to stop guns from going to Mexico to falsely try to justify laws to actually stop guns from going to Mexico! !!! !!! !!!

So at last we scrape down through all the crazy slogans and pseudo-logic, and unending hysteria about jack-booted G-men coming to take Grandma's shotgun and we see what's really most important to the mega-powerful gun lobby in America.

Gun-running to Mexico. All of this nonsense, from Lapierre to Issa, and this galactically impossible non-scandal, is aimed at protecting gun shops that sell a hell of a lot of weaponry to mules headed to Mexico. It has nothing to do with the Second Amendment. Nothing to do with self-defense, or hunting or target shooting, or a Swiss-like ideal of every citizen being prepared to defend the homeland.

Gunrunner profits. That's what matters here. That's what all the screaming and sweating and false visions of gun-stripping apocalypsi are about. They knew people were wondering why there is a steady river of arms flowing from Arizona directly to Mexician drug lords, and got worried someone might eventually want to do something about it. So we all got Congressman Car Thief Issa's epic hearings, the first attempt to hold a USAG in contempt of Congress, and the "Fast and Furious scandal."

But no talk so far of doing a single thing to stem the flow of illegal American guns. Because once again, when it comes to firearms in America, crazy works just fine.

rec handmade34 Jun 2012 #1
So, suddenly Fortune magazine, Corporatist rag, is a reliable news source? Funny how that works. DonP Jun 2012 #2
LOL. The gunnies don't like it when actual reporters look into their conspiracy theories! DanTex Jun 2012 #4
No, but I expect you to keep quiet the next time somebody quotes the WSJ or Forbes DonP Jun 2012 #9
Keep that head buried in that sand! DanTex Jun 2012 #14
So being a Rhodes Scholar Oneka Jun 2012 #20
What a great pic. Gotta love her. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #36
Actually, I **don't** gotta love anyone who inflicts serious damage Simo 1939_1940 Jul 2012 #82
Argument from authority is now acceptable if you agree with the authority? friendly_iconoclast Jul 2012 #81
About that "Rhodes Scholar" bit... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #84
Hmmm, a "Rhodes Scholar", eh? PavePusher Aug 2012 #127
I wonder if he has the same high opinion of all Rhodes Scholars? gejohnston Aug 2012 #128
Your understanding of journalism is on a par with your understanding of public safety. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #35
Your understanding of public safety is on par with my cat's understanding of particle physics. Clames Jul 2012 #46
So you're saying that... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #5
The gun control freaks* would embrace FR if it claimed F&F was bogus. Canopus Jun 2012 #13
How about giving us a shout when FR says anything positive about Obama, ATF, SS, Medicaid, etc. Hoyt Jun 2012 #15
Classic ad hominem HankyDub Jun 2012 #25
Are we feeling...hungry again? beevul Jun 2012 #27
hiya! HankyDub Jun 2012 #30
Self-imposed intellectual circle-jerking. Callisto32 Jun 2012 #32
Less anger HankyDub Jun 2012 #34
I'm glad you came back with more substance gejohnston Jun 2012 #38
call me whatever you like HankyDub Jun 2012 #39
I call no one daddy, including my father. gejohnston Jun 2012 #40
LOL. A "puff piece". A "couple of ATF agents". DanTex Jun 2012 #41
CBS did a better job. gejohnston Jun 2012 #42
Who is in denial? Oneka Jun 2012 #43
and a way for those responsible to pin it on gejohnston Jun 2012 #44
This message was self-deleted by its author Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2012 #45
It's not "conditional ethics." It's "When even the wingdings can't buy the rightwing bullshit, the MADem Jun 2012 #33
Next up: How the DOJ's war on medical marijuana truedelphi Jun 2012 #3
Who was it... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #6
Like we all didn't know F&F was the NRA's fault. ileus Jun 2012 #7
Gun culture and their allies -- such as NRA -- damn sure did. Hoyt Jun 2012 #16
Too long to read Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #8
read it... your question is answered in the article. SemperEadem Jun 2012 #11
It's pretty obvious to most. And it's being handled perfectly -- Obama is throwing it in face of Hoyt Jun 2012 #17
I'm basking in the glow of transparency. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #23
I just read that article SemperEadem Jun 2012 #10
So... Callisto32 Jun 2012 #12
To pro-gun/anti-Obama crowd, this has to be like george bush failing to find WMDs Hoyt Jun 2012 #18
What? Remmah2 Jun 2012 #29
Don't have to mention it every time because I have you conditioned to think about the no-good NRA. Hoyt Jul 2012 #68
When you mentioned mushroom cloud I thought someone was smoking them. Remmah2 Jul 2012 #71
No I was referring to george bush lies about Iraq and their "nuclear bombs." Hoyt Jul 2012 #73
Don't forget the biological and chemical WMD's Remmah2 Jul 2012 #74
maybe a few an the fringe right gejohnston Jul 2012 #66
So which is it? Oneka Jun 2012 #19
Right Wing Holder is Part of the Effort to Take Down Obama!!1@!!!1 TPaine7 Jun 2012 #21
"minor issues with the Fortune story." Oneka Jun 2012 #26
The truth is out there. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #24
I would have only one question for Holder gejohnston Jun 2012 #22
The idiots in question Oneka Jul 2012 #67
Intentional or accidental the results were still the same. Remmah2 Jun 2012 #28
From the article: PavePusher Jun 2012 #31
The OP seems to have found your questions inconvenient, as they have gone missing. friendly_iconoclast Jul 2012 #49
Yeah, typical. n/t PavePusher Jul 2012 #50
locking jpak Jun 2012 #37
Delusions of being a host... Clames Jul 2012 #47
And perhaps if his behavior didn't match Simo 1939_1940 Jul 2012 #48
It's a fascinating lie to protect shady American gun sellers. DirkGently Jul 2012 #51
So who ordered this? Oneka Jul 2012 #52
Why do you insist on quoting the article out of context? DanTex Jul 2012 #53
pushing a conspiracy theory! Oneka Jul 2012 #54
Yes, the quote is from the Fortune article, but you took it out of context. DanTex Jul 2012 #55
"Out of context" TPaine7 Jul 2012 #57
If you look up a few posts, you will see that Oneka highlighted this part of the passage in bold DanTex Jul 2012 #58
Oneka can correct me if I'm wrong, TPaine7 Jul 2012 #60
Let's try this again: we don't know why Holder said that. DanTex Jul 2012 #63
I think, rationally speaking, we have a very good idea why Holder said what he said. IT WAS TRUE. TPaine7 Jul 2012 #69
The skill you need to work on is tolerance of uncertainty. DanTex Jul 2012 #70
Translation: Oneka Jul 2012 #72
Do I smell a whiff of irony there? Euromutt Jul 2012 #79
No correction neccassarry Oneka Jul 2012 #65
Here are some questions: gejohnston Jul 2012 #61
so this Fortune article is accusing a whisleblowing agent of gejohnston Jul 2012 #75
I find it interesting that CBS news has also done a series of reports on Fast and Furious ... spin Jul 2012 #56
What I find interesting is that the very mention of guns "causing deaths"... DanTex Jul 2012 #59
Guns don't kill people; guns don't cause deaths. TPaine7 Jul 2012 #62
I don't feel that many gun owners would say that allowing firearms to end up in the hands ... spin Jul 2012 #64
Amy Goodman became loony gun blogger? gejohnston Jul 2012 #76
*That* will be ignored, as it doesn't fit the meme being pushed in the OP. friendly_iconoclast Jul 2012 #77
But... but... but... Rhodes Scholar... climate change denial... gun bloggers... right wing TPaine7 Jul 2012 #78
LOOK ME IN THE EYE.. Oneka Jul 2012 #80
An opposing view from someone in the House oversight comittee ,long read, but informative. Oneka Aug 2012 #83
LOL. "someone in the House oversight committee" = Darrell Issa DanTex Aug 2012 #85
one has supporting evidence, the other only claims it. gejohnston Aug 2012 #86
No evidence it came from Issa? Are you joking? DanTex Aug 2012 #87
you are ignoring facts, backed up by evidence presented gejohnston Aug 2012 #88
Your interlocutor relies on the argument from authority, and its flipside the genetic fallacy. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #89
The irony... DanTex Aug 2012 #91
All the better reason for you to detail the factual errors in the linked *.pdf friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #92
Wow, you are even more clueless than I thought! DanTex Aug 2012 #90
Project much? gejohnston Aug 2012 #93
This message was self-deleted by its author friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #94
Well, then- get busy fisking the document linked in post #83. Point out the errors. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #95
Sorry, I'm not going through 300 pages of right-wing propaganda... DanTex Aug 2012 #96
you don't know the difference between a magazine article and a report? gejohnston Aug 2012 #97
Ooh! Terminology! DanTex Aug 2012 #98
In other words, substance and logic are not your strong suit gejohnston Aug 2012 #99
LOL. You are slowly going off the deep end on this one. DanTex Aug 2012 #100
what conspiracy theory? gejohnston Aug 2012 #103
Your "points" are completely divorced from reality. DanTex Aug 2012 #105
you have no idea how the system works gejohnston Aug 2012 #108
This is hilarious, coming from the guy who didn't think that Darrell Issa authored of the... DanTex Aug 2012 #111
I was seeing if you could back something you said up gejohnston Aug 2012 #113
Well, at the very least I know that the Issa-Grassley report... DanTex Aug 2012 #114
Where is Cumming's document saying it is full of shit? gejohnston Aug 2012 #116
What are you talking about? DanTex Aug 2012 #119
Where is Cumming's document contradicting Issa's? gejohnston Aug 2012 #120
You should ask Cummings that question. And ask the US attorneys about the documents and the trials. DanTex Aug 2012 #123
I can reason under uncertainty quite well gejohnston Aug 2012 #124
Really? You read the whole thing? Well, I have a question. DanTex Aug 2012 #125
because I figured you didn't read it gejohnston Aug 2012 #126
You don't address the substance of what's said, but complain about the source? Genetic fallacy... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #101
LOL. You sure know your logic buzzwords! DanTex Aug 2012 #102
where is yours? gejohnston Aug 2012 #104
Theme and variation on "Eban good, Issa bad, those that question it are fools. Take my word on it". friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #106
LOL. You're failing! You won't make the 8th grade team if you can't do better than that! DanTex Aug 2012 #107
where is yours? gejohnston Aug 2012 #109
Not my job. You claim "Issa's" work is bogus, so demonstrate the bogosity. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #110
Actually, you are the one claiming Eban's work is bogus. DanTex Aug 2012 #112
Not so; I said the defense of her work by citations of her credentials is... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #115
Of course! DanTex Aug 2012 #117
don't most investigative reporters gejohnston Aug 2012 #118
Investigative reporters speak truth. DanTex Aug 2012 #121
I haven't seen any one claiming any such thing gejohnston Aug 2012 #122
Without a dump of those "2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents", Eban is cherry-picking. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #129
what a crock of shit. UnRec. Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2012 #130
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