Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)
61. Here are some questions:
Mon Jul 2, 2012, 06:11 PM
Jul 2012

Last edited Mon Jul 2, 2012, 08:29 PM - Edit history (1)

and no, it is not the best researched. It is the one you like the most, but it is not the best researched. It might explain a few things, but raises more questions.
What "confidential documents" did she look at? Did she have free reign, or did ATF management just hand the ones that serve their purpose?
Which ATF agents did she talk to? Again, did she have free reign and agents could talk to her openly and honestly, or were they hand picked by management. The military hand picks who gets to talk to the media or politician all of the time, why would ATF agent Voth be any different?
So, they are saying Dodson became whistleblower to cover his own ass? More likely they are trying to scapegoat Dodson.

Then she, and you, are accusing Dodson of perjury before congress.

Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more. Knowing all the while, just days after these purchases, the guns that we saw these individuals buy would begin turning up at crime scenes in the United States and Mexico, we still did nothing. I can recall, for example, watching one suspect receive a bag filled with cash from a third party then proceed to a gun dealer and purchase weapons with that cash and deliver them to this same unknown third party. Although my instincts made me want to intervene and interdict these weapons, my supervisors directed me and my colleagues not to make any stop or arrest, but rather, to keep the straw purchaser under surveillance while allowing the guns to walk. Surveillance operations like this were the rule, not the exception. This was not a matter of some weapons getting away from us, or allowing a few to walk so as to follow them to a much larger or more significant target. Allowing loads of weapons that we knew to be destined for criminals—this was the plan. It was so mandated.
I put in bold what would be a slam dunk conviction for "lying and buying"
http://tucsoncitizen.com/view-from-baja-arizona/2011/06/15/statement-of-john-dodson-about-atf-gunwalker-scandal-the-very-idea-of-letting-guns-walk-is-unthinkable-to-most-law-enforcement/


Ten weeks later, an ATF agent named John Dodson, whom Voth had supervised, made startling allegations on the CBS Evening News. He charged that his supervisors had intentionally allowed American firearms to be trafficked—a tactic known as "walking guns"—to Mexican drug cartels. Dodson claimed that supervisors repeatedly ordered him not to seize weapons because they wanted to track the guns into the hands of criminal ringleaders. The program showed internal e-mails from Voth, which purportedly revealed agents locked in a dispute over the deadly strategy. The guns permitted to flow to criminals, the program charged, played a role in Terry's death.
After the CBS broadcast, Fast and Furious erupted as a major scandal for the Obama administration. The story has become a fixture on Fox News and the subject of numerous reports in media outlets from CNN to the New York Times. The furor has prompted repeated congressional hearings—with U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder testifying multiple times—dueling reports from congressional committees, and an ongoing investigation by the Justice Department's inspector general. It has led to the resignations of the acting ATF chief, the U.S. Attorney in Arizona, and his chief criminal prosecutor.

It seems that the loony right wing militia guy that started the conspiracy theory was....CBS news? Faux and others jumped on it only after CBS interviewed Dodson. It is simply impossible to intelligently discuss FF, gun and drug trafficking without having to let go of "to be a good liberal/conservative, I must believe this regardless of the evidence."

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

rec handmade34 Jun 2012 #1
So, suddenly Fortune magazine, Corporatist rag, is a reliable news source? Funny how that works. DonP Jun 2012 #2
LOL. The gunnies don't like it when actual reporters look into their conspiracy theories! DanTex Jun 2012 #4
No, but I expect you to keep quiet the next time somebody quotes the WSJ or Forbes DonP Jun 2012 #9
Keep that head buried in that sand! DanTex Jun 2012 #14
So being a Rhodes Scholar Oneka Jun 2012 #20
What a great pic. Gotta love her. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #36
Actually, I **don't** gotta love anyone who inflicts serious damage Simo 1939_1940 Jul 2012 #82
Argument from authority is now acceptable if you agree with the authority? friendly_iconoclast Jul 2012 #81
About that "Rhodes Scholar" bit... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #84
Hmmm, a "Rhodes Scholar", eh? PavePusher Aug 2012 #127
I wonder if he has the same high opinion of all Rhodes Scholars? gejohnston Aug 2012 #128
Your understanding of journalism is on a par with your understanding of public safety. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #35
Your understanding of public safety is on par with my cat's understanding of particle physics. Clames Jul 2012 #46
So you're saying that... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #5
The gun control freaks* would embrace FR if it claimed F&F was bogus. Canopus Jun 2012 #13
How about giving us a shout when FR says anything positive about Obama, ATF, SS, Medicaid, etc. Hoyt Jun 2012 #15
Classic ad hominem HankyDub Jun 2012 #25
Are we feeling...hungry again? beevul Jun 2012 #27
hiya! HankyDub Jun 2012 #30
Self-imposed intellectual circle-jerking. Callisto32 Jun 2012 #32
Less anger HankyDub Jun 2012 #34
I'm glad you came back with more substance gejohnston Jun 2012 #38
call me whatever you like HankyDub Jun 2012 #39
I call no one daddy, including my father. gejohnston Jun 2012 #40
LOL. A "puff piece". A "couple of ATF agents". DanTex Jun 2012 #41
CBS did a better job. gejohnston Jun 2012 #42
Who is in denial? Oneka Jun 2012 #43
and a way for those responsible to pin it on gejohnston Jun 2012 #44
This message was self-deleted by its author Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2012 #45
It's not "conditional ethics." It's "When even the wingdings can't buy the rightwing bullshit, the MADem Jun 2012 #33
Next up: How the DOJ's war on medical marijuana truedelphi Jun 2012 #3
Who was it... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #6
Like we all didn't know F&F was the NRA's fault. ileus Jun 2012 #7
Gun culture and their allies -- such as NRA -- damn sure did. Hoyt Jun 2012 #16
Too long to read Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #8
read it... your question is answered in the article. SemperEadem Jun 2012 #11
It's pretty obvious to most. And it's being handled perfectly -- Obama is throwing it in face of Hoyt Jun 2012 #17
I'm basking in the glow of transparency. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #23
I just read that article SemperEadem Jun 2012 #10
So... Callisto32 Jun 2012 #12
To pro-gun/anti-Obama crowd, this has to be like george bush failing to find WMDs Hoyt Jun 2012 #18
What? Remmah2 Jun 2012 #29
Don't have to mention it every time because I have you conditioned to think about the no-good NRA. Hoyt Jul 2012 #68
When you mentioned mushroom cloud I thought someone was smoking them. Remmah2 Jul 2012 #71
No I was referring to george bush lies about Iraq and their "nuclear bombs." Hoyt Jul 2012 #73
Don't forget the biological and chemical WMD's Remmah2 Jul 2012 #74
maybe a few an the fringe right gejohnston Jul 2012 #66
So which is it? Oneka Jun 2012 #19
Right Wing Holder is Part of the Effort to Take Down Obama!!1@!!!1 TPaine7 Jun 2012 #21
"minor issues with the Fortune story." Oneka Jun 2012 #26
The truth is out there. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #24
I would have only one question for Holder gejohnston Jun 2012 #22
The idiots in question Oneka Jul 2012 #67
Intentional or accidental the results were still the same. Remmah2 Jun 2012 #28
From the article: PavePusher Jun 2012 #31
The OP seems to have found your questions inconvenient, as they have gone missing. friendly_iconoclast Jul 2012 #49
Yeah, typical. n/t PavePusher Jul 2012 #50
locking jpak Jun 2012 #37
Delusions of being a host... Clames Jul 2012 #47
And perhaps if his behavior didn't match Simo 1939_1940 Jul 2012 #48
It's a fascinating lie to protect shady American gun sellers. DirkGently Jul 2012 #51
So who ordered this? Oneka Jul 2012 #52
Why do you insist on quoting the article out of context? DanTex Jul 2012 #53
pushing a conspiracy theory! Oneka Jul 2012 #54
Yes, the quote is from the Fortune article, but you took it out of context. DanTex Jul 2012 #55
"Out of context" TPaine7 Jul 2012 #57
If you look up a few posts, you will see that Oneka highlighted this part of the passage in bold DanTex Jul 2012 #58
Oneka can correct me if I'm wrong, TPaine7 Jul 2012 #60
Let's try this again: we don't know why Holder said that. DanTex Jul 2012 #63
I think, rationally speaking, we have a very good idea why Holder said what he said. IT WAS TRUE. TPaine7 Jul 2012 #69
The skill you need to work on is tolerance of uncertainty. DanTex Jul 2012 #70
Translation: Oneka Jul 2012 #72
Do I smell a whiff of irony there? Euromutt Jul 2012 #79
No correction neccassarry Oneka Jul 2012 #65
Here are some questions: gejohnston Jul 2012 #61
so this Fortune article is accusing a whisleblowing agent of gejohnston Jul 2012 #75
I find it interesting that CBS news has also done a series of reports on Fast and Furious ... spin Jul 2012 #56
What I find interesting is that the very mention of guns "causing deaths"... DanTex Jul 2012 #59
Guns don't kill people; guns don't cause deaths. TPaine7 Jul 2012 #62
I don't feel that many gun owners would say that allowing firearms to end up in the hands ... spin Jul 2012 #64
Amy Goodman became loony gun blogger? gejohnston Jul 2012 #76
*That* will be ignored, as it doesn't fit the meme being pushed in the OP. friendly_iconoclast Jul 2012 #77
But... but... but... Rhodes Scholar... climate change denial... gun bloggers... right wing TPaine7 Jul 2012 #78
LOOK ME IN THE EYE.. Oneka Jul 2012 #80
An opposing view from someone in the House oversight comittee ,long read, but informative. Oneka Aug 2012 #83
LOL. "someone in the House oversight committee" = Darrell Issa DanTex Aug 2012 #85
one has supporting evidence, the other only claims it. gejohnston Aug 2012 #86
No evidence it came from Issa? Are you joking? DanTex Aug 2012 #87
you are ignoring facts, backed up by evidence presented gejohnston Aug 2012 #88
Your interlocutor relies on the argument from authority, and its flipside the genetic fallacy. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #89
The irony... DanTex Aug 2012 #91
All the better reason for you to detail the factual errors in the linked *.pdf friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #92
Wow, you are even more clueless than I thought! DanTex Aug 2012 #90
Project much? gejohnston Aug 2012 #93
This message was self-deleted by its author friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #94
Well, then- get busy fisking the document linked in post #83. Point out the errors. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #95
Sorry, I'm not going through 300 pages of right-wing propaganda... DanTex Aug 2012 #96
you don't know the difference between a magazine article and a report? gejohnston Aug 2012 #97
Ooh! Terminology! DanTex Aug 2012 #98
In other words, substance and logic are not your strong suit gejohnston Aug 2012 #99
LOL. You are slowly going off the deep end on this one. DanTex Aug 2012 #100
what conspiracy theory? gejohnston Aug 2012 #103
Your "points" are completely divorced from reality. DanTex Aug 2012 #105
you have no idea how the system works gejohnston Aug 2012 #108
This is hilarious, coming from the guy who didn't think that Darrell Issa authored of the... DanTex Aug 2012 #111
I was seeing if you could back something you said up gejohnston Aug 2012 #113
Well, at the very least I know that the Issa-Grassley report... DanTex Aug 2012 #114
Where is Cumming's document saying it is full of shit? gejohnston Aug 2012 #116
What are you talking about? DanTex Aug 2012 #119
Where is Cumming's document contradicting Issa's? gejohnston Aug 2012 #120
You should ask Cummings that question. And ask the US attorneys about the documents and the trials. DanTex Aug 2012 #123
I can reason under uncertainty quite well gejohnston Aug 2012 #124
Really? You read the whole thing? Well, I have a question. DanTex Aug 2012 #125
because I figured you didn't read it gejohnston Aug 2012 #126
You don't address the substance of what's said, but complain about the source? Genetic fallacy... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #101
LOL. You sure know your logic buzzwords! DanTex Aug 2012 #102
where is yours? gejohnston Aug 2012 #104
Theme and variation on "Eban good, Issa bad, those that question it are fools. Take my word on it". friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #106
LOL. You're failing! You won't make the 8th grade team if you can't do better than that! DanTex Aug 2012 #107
where is yours? gejohnston Aug 2012 #109
Not my job. You claim "Issa's" work is bogus, so demonstrate the bogosity. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #110
Actually, you are the one claiming Eban's work is bogus. DanTex Aug 2012 #112
Not so; I said the defense of her work by citations of her credentials is... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #115
Of course! DanTex Aug 2012 #117
don't most investigative reporters gejohnston Aug 2012 #118
Investigative reporters speak truth. DanTex Aug 2012 #121
I haven't seen any one claiming any such thing gejohnston Aug 2012 #122
Without a dump of those "2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents", Eban is cherry-picking. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #129
what a crock of shit. UnRec. Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2012 #130
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»The Truth about Fast &...»Reply #61