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Gun Control & RKBA
In reply to the discussion: The Truth about Fast & Furious [View all]spin
(17,493 posts)64. I don't feel that many gun owners would say that allowing firearms to end up in the hands ...
of criminal drug gangs in Mexico would not result in their misuse and consequently cause death. It wasn't the firearms that caused the killings, it was the people who pulled the trigger on the firearms. Firearms are inanimate objects that merely function in the hands of a human.
You also have to realize that American gun stores are not supplying the drug cartels in Mexico with many of the weapons that they use. Fully automatic firearms which are common weapons used by the Mexican drug cartels are tightly controlled in the United States and generally they are not available at mom and pop gun stores in the United States. Nor are grenades and rocket launchers.
Mexican Cartels Get Heavy Weapons from Central America, U.S. Cables Say
MEXICO CITY The most fearsome weapons wielded by Mexicos drug cartels enter the country from Central America, not the United States, according to U.S. diplomatic cables disseminated by WikiLeaks and published on Tuesday by La Jornada newspaper.
Items such as grenades and rocket-launchers are stolen from Central American armies and smuggled into Mexico via neighboring Guatemala, the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City reported to Washington.
The assertions appear in embassy cables written after three bilateral conferences on arms trafficking that took place between March 2009 and January 2010 in Cuernavaca, Mexico; Phoenix; and Tapachula, Mexico, respectively.
***snip***
Yet one of the cables maintains that 90 percent of the heavy armament Mexican security forces seize from cartel gunmen comes from Central America.
http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=390473&CategoryId=14091
Drug cartels' new weaponry means war
Narcotics traffickers are acquiring firepower more appropriate to an army -- including grenade launchers and antitank rockets -- and the police are feeling outgunned.
By Ken Ellingwood and Tracy Wilkinson March 15, 2009
***snip***
The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.
Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.
The proliferation of heavier armaments points to a menacing new stage in the Mexican government's 2-year-old war against drug organizations, which are evolving into a more militarized force prepared to take on Mexican army troops, deployed by the thousands, as well as to attack each other.
These groups appear to be taking advantage of a robust global black market and porous borders, especially between Mexico and Guatemala. Some of the weapons are left over from the wars that the United States helped fight in Central America, U.S. officials said.
These groups appear to be taking advantage of a robust global black market and porous borders, especially between Mexico and Guatemala. Some of the weapons are left over from the wars that the United States helped fight in Central America, U.S. officials said.
U.S. role in arming Mexico's drug war exaggerated: study
By Stephanie Nebehay GENEVA | Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:47pm EDT
(Reuters) - Mexico's hardline fight against drug gangs has driven violence to levels higher in than many war zones but the role the United States plays in arming these brutal cartels appears exaggerated, independent arms researchers said on Thursday.
***snip***
He said only 30 percent of an estimated 100,000 weapons confiscated in Mexico each year are sent by authorities to the United States for identification on suspicion of having crossed the long, porous border.
Of these, 80 percent turn out to be U.S.-made but that does not mean that 80 percent of the overall total of arms seized in Mexico are of U.S. origin, as is often claimed, he said.
***snip***
He said seizures and photographs suggest significant quantities of military-style weapons such as grenades and even rocket launchers, were not coming across the U.S. border but coming from surplus stocks in places such as Guatemala or even from other official sources in Mexico itself.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/27/us-arms-violence-idUSTRE79Q57620111027
Obviously it serves the purpose of those who would like to see another assault weapons ban or gun registration to claim that guns from mom and pop gun stores are the primary armament of the drug cartels in Mexico. However this is untrue as the weapons come from many sources. I will admit that the straw purchase of firearms in our nation does indeed occur and the result is the smuggling of firearms to both Mexico and the streets of our cities.
I will agree that we need to better enforce existing laws and possibly increase the punishment for anyone involved in the straw purchase of firearms or their smuggling. I also believe that the goal of stopping the drug wars in Mexico is important as the violence there will eventually lead to similar violence in our own nation.
I don't believe that another assault weapons ban will stop the wars in Mexico nor will any draconian laws in our nation that effect only honest gun owners. If such laws would accomplish this goal, I would support them despite my views that favor gun rights for civilians.
I personally feel we would be far better off if we just reconsidered continuing our failed War on Drugs. Just as with our experience in prohibiting alcohol from 1920 to 1933, the War on Drugs has backfired and led to the creation of powerful criminal gangs that are terrorizing Mexico and our nation. We had the commonsense to stop a foolish effort in 1933 and once again legalize alcohol. We need to rediscover that same commonsense today and legalize some drugs such as Marijuana. Obviously there will be drawbacks as drugs are dangerous just as alcohol is, but we may live in a far more peaceful society.
I look more for results than to support my personal beliefs. If furthering the goals of gun control groups such as the Brady Campaign and other gun control advocates would actually accomplish something positive I would support such efforts. I feel that enforcing our laws is the correct goal and have no problem with tweaking them to accomplish that result but I definitely feel that when our government decides to bypass our laws and deliver dangerous firearms to Mexican drug gangs is a foolish plan and deserves a serious investigation as to motives.
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So, suddenly Fortune magazine, Corporatist rag, is a reliable news source? Funny how that works.
DonP
Jun 2012
#2
LOL. The gunnies don't like it when actual reporters look into their conspiracy theories!
DanTex
Jun 2012
#4
Argument from authority is now acceptable if you agree with the authority?
friendly_iconoclast
Jul 2012
#81
Your understanding of journalism is on a par with your understanding of public safety.
Starboard Tack
Jun 2012
#35
Your understanding of public safety is on par with my cat's understanding of particle physics.
Clames
Jul 2012
#46
How about giving us a shout when FR says anything positive about Obama, ATF, SS, Medicaid, etc.
Hoyt
Jun 2012
#15
It's not "conditional ethics." It's "When even the wingdings can't buy the rightwing bullshit, the
MADem
Jun 2012
#33
It's pretty obvious to most. And it's being handled perfectly -- Obama is throwing it in face of
Hoyt
Jun 2012
#17
Don't have to mention it every time because I have you conditioned to think about the no-good NRA.
Hoyt
Jul 2012
#68
The OP seems to have found your questions inconvenient, as they have gone missing.
friendly_iconoclast
Jul 2012
#49
If you look up a few posts, you will see that Oneka highlighted this part of the passage in bold
DanTex
Jul 2012
#58
I think, rationally speaking, we have a very good idea why Holder said what he said. IT WAS TRUE.
TPaine7
Jul 2012
#69
I find it interesting that CBS news has also done a series of reports on Fast and Furious ...
spin
Jul 2012
#56
I don't feel that many gun owners would say that allowing firearms to end up in the hands ...
spin
Jul 2012
#64
*That* will be ignored, as it doesn't fit the meme being pushed in the OP.
friendly_iconoclast
Jul 2012
#77
But... but... but... Rhodes Scholar... climate change denial... gun bloggers... right wing
TPaine7
Jul 2012
#78
An opposing view from someone in the House oversight comittee ,long read, but informative.
Oneka
Aug 2012
#83
Your interlocutor relies on the argument from authority, and its flipside the genetic fallacy.
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2012
#89
All the better reason for you to detail the factual errors in the linked *.pdf
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2012
#92
Well, then- get busy fisking the document linked in post #83. Point out the errors.
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2012
#95
This is hilarious, coming from the guy who didn't think that Darrell Issa authored of the...
DanTex
Aug 2012
#111
You should ask Cummings that question. And ask the US attorneys about the documents and the trials.
DanTex
Aug 2012
#123
You don't address the substance of what's said, but complain about the source? Genetic fallacy...
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2012
#101
Theme and variation on "Eban good, Issa bad, those that question it are fools. Take my word on it".
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2012
#106
LOL. You're failing! You won't make the 8th grade team if you can't do better than that!
DanTex
Aug 2012
#107
Not my job. You claim "Issa's" work is bogus, so demonstrate the bogosity.
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2012
#110
Not so; I said the defense of her work by citations of her credentials is...
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2012
#115
Without a dump of those "2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents", Eban is cherry-picking.
friendly_iconoclast
Aug 2012
#129
