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spin

(17,493 posts)
64. I don't feel that many gun owners would say that allowing firearms to end up in the hands ...
Mon Jul 2, 2012, 07:41 PM
Jul 2012

of criminal drug gangs in Mexico would not result in their misuse and consequently cause death. It wasn't the firearms that caused the killings, it was the people who pulled the trigger on the firearms. Firearms are inanimate objects that merely function in the hands of a human.

You also have to realize that American gun stores are not supplying the drug cartels in Mexico with many of the weapons that they use. Fully automatic firearms which are common weapons used by the Mexican drug cartels are tightly controlled in the United States and generally they are not available at mom and pop gun stores in the United States. Nor are grenades and rocket launchers.

Mexican Cartels Get Heavy Weapons from Central America, U.S. Cables Say

MEXICO CITY – The most fearsome weapons wielded by Mexico’s drug cartels enter the country from Central America, not the United States, according to U.S. diplomatic cables disseminated by WikiLeaks and published on Tuesday by La Jornada newspaper.

Items such as grenades and rocket-launchers are stolen from Central American armies and smuggled into Mexico via neighboring Guatemala, the U.S. Embassy in Mexico City reported to Washington.

The assertions appear in embassy cables written after three bilateral conferences on arms trafficking that took place between March 2009 and January 2010 in Cuernavaca, Mexico; Phoenix; and Tapachula, Mexico, respectively.

***snip***

Yet one of the cables maintains that 90 percent of the heavy armament Mexican security forces seize from cartel gunmen comes from Central America.
http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=390473&CategoryId=14091


Drug cartels' new weaponry means war
Narcotics traffickers are acquiring firepower more appropriate to an army -- including grenade launchers and antitank rockets -- and the police are feeling outgunned.

By Ken Ellingwood and Tracy Wilkinson March 15, 2009


***snip***

The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.

The proliferation of heavier armaments points to a menacing new stage in the Mexican government's 2-year-old war against drug organizations, which are evolving into a more militarized force prepared to take on Mexican army troops, deployed by the thousands, as well as to attack each other.

These groups appear to be taking advantage of a robust global black market and porous borders, especially between Mexico and Guatemala. Some of the weapons are left over from the wars that the United States helped fight in Central America, U.S. officials said.

These groups appear to be taking advantage of a robust global black market and porous borders, especially between Mexico and Guatemala. Some of the weapons are left over from the wars that the United States helped fight in Central America, U.S. officials said.


U.S. role in arming Mexico's drug war exaggerated: study


By Stephanie Nebehay GENEVA | Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:47pm EDT


(Reuters) - Mexico's hardline fight against drug gangs has driven violence to levels higher in than many war zones but the role the United States plays in arming these brutal cartels appears exaggerated, independent arms researchers said on Thursday.

***snip***

He said only 30 percent of an estimated 100,000 weapons confiscated in Mexico each year are sent by authorities to the United States for identification on suspicion of having crossed the long, porous border.

Of these, 80 percent turn out to be U.S.-made but that does not mean that 80 percent of the overall total of arms seized in Mexico are of U.S. origin, as is often claimed, he said.

***snip***

He said seizures and photographs suggest significant quantities of military-style weapons such as grenades and even rocket launchers, were not coming across the U.S. border but coming from surplus stocks in places such as Guatemala or even from other official sources in Mexico itself.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/27/us-arms-violence-idUSTRE79Q57620111027


Obviously it serves the purpose of those who would like to see another assault weapons ban or gun registration to claim that guns from mom and pop gun stores are the primary armament of the drug cartels in Mexico. However this is untrue as the weapons come from many sources. I will admit that the straw purchase of firearms in our nation does indeed occur and the result is the smuggling of firearms to both Mexico and the streets of our cities.

I will agree that we need to better enforce existing laws and possibly increase the punishment for anyone involved in the straw purchase of firearms or their smuggling. I also believe that the goal of stopping the drug wars in Mexico is important as the violence there will eventually lead to similar violence in our own nation.

I don't believe that another assault weapons ban will stop the wars in Mexico nor will any draconian laws in our nation that effect only honest gun owners. If such laws would accomplish this goal, I would support them despite my views that favor gun rights for civilians.

I personally feel we would be far better off if we just reconsidered continuing our failed War on Drugs. Just as with our experience in prohibiting alcohol from 1920 to 1933, the War on Drugs has backfired and led to the creation of powerful criminal gangs that are terrorizing Mexico and our nation. We had the commonsense to stop a foolish effort in 1933 and once again legalize alcohol. We need to rediscover that same commonsense today and legalize some drugs such as Marijuana. Obviously there will be drawbacks as drugs are dangerous just as alcohol is, but we may live in a far more peaceful society.

I look more for results than to support my personal beliefs. If furthering the goals of gun control groups such as the Brady Campaign and other gun control advocates would actually accomplish something positive I would support such efforts. I feel that enforcing our laws is the correct goal and have no problem with tweaking them to accomplish that result but I definitely feel that when our government decides to bypass our laws and deliver dangerous firearms to Mexican drug gangs is a foolish plan and deserves a serious investigation as to motives.





Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

rec handmade34 Jun 2012 #1
So, suddenly Fortune magazine, Corporatist rag, is a reliable news source? Funny how that works. DonP Jun 2012 #2
LOL. The gunnies don't like it when actual reporters look into their conspiracy theories! DanTex Jun 2012 #4
No, but I expect you to keep quiet the next time somebody quotes the WSJ or Forbes DonP Jun 2012 #9
Keep that head buried in that sand! DanTex Jun 2012 #14
So being a Rhodes Scholar Oneka Jun 2012 #20
What a great pic. Gotta love her. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #36
Actually, I **don't** gotta love anyone who inflicts serious damage Simo 1939_1940 Jul 2012 #82
Argument from authority is now acceptable if you agree with the authority? friendly_iconoclast Jul 2012 #81
About that "Rhodes Scholar" bit... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #84
Hmmm, a "Rhodes Scholar", eh? PavePusher Aug 2012 #127
I wonder if he has the same high opinion of all Rhodes Scholars? gejohnston Aug 2012 #128
Your understanding of journalism is on a par with your understanding of public safety. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #35
Your understanding of public safety is on par with my cat's understanding of particle physics. Clames Jul 2012 #46
So you're saying that... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #5
The gun control freaks* would embrace FR if it claimed F&F was bogus. Canopus Jun 2012 #13
How about giving us a shout when FR says anything positive about Obama, ATF, SS, Medicaid, etc. Hoyt Jun 2012 #15
Classic ad hominem HankyDub Jun 2012 #25
Are we feeling...hungry again? beevul Jun 2012 #27
hiya! HankyDub Jun 2012 #30
Self-imposed intellectual circle-jerking. Callisto32 Jun 2012 #32
Less anger HankyDub Jun 2012 #34
I'm glad you came back with more substance gejohnston Jun 2012 #38
call me whatever you like HankyDub Jun 2012 #39
I call no one daddy, including my father. gejohnston Jun 2012 #40
LOL. A "puff piece". A "couple of ATF agents". DanTex Jun 2012 #41
CBS did a better job. gejohnston Jun 2012 #42
Who is in denial? Oneka Jun 2012 #43
and a way for those responsible to pin it on gejohnston Jun 2012 #44
This message was self-deleted by its author Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2012 #45
It's not "conditional ethics." It's "When even the wingdings can't buy the rightwing bullshit, the MADem Jun 2012 #33
Next up: How the DOJ's war on medical marijuana truedelphi Jun 2012 #3
Who was it... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #6
Like we all didn't know F&F was the NRA's fault. ileus Jun 2012 #7
Gun culture and their allies -- such as NRA -- damn sure did. Hoyt Jun 2012 #16
Too long to read Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #8
read it... your question is answered in the article. SemperEadem Jun 2012 #11
It's pretty obvious to most. And it's being handled perfectly -- Obama is throwing it in face of Hoyt Jun 2012 #17
I'm basking in the glow of transparency. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #23
I just read that article SemperEadem Jun 2012 #10
So... Callisto32 Jun 2012 #12
To pro-gun/anti-Obama crowd, this has to be like george bush failing to find WMDs Hoyt Jun 2012 #18
What? Remmah2 Jun 2012 #29
Don't have to mention it every time because I have you conditioned to think about the no-good NRA. Hoyt Jul 2012 #68
When you mentioned mushroom cloud I thought someone was smoking them. Remmah2 Jul 2012 #71
No I was referring to george bush lies about Iraq and their "nuclear bombs." Hoyt Jul 2012 #73
Don't forget the biological and chemical WMD's Remmah2 Jul 2012 #74
maybe a few an the fringe right gejohnston Jul 2012 #66
So which is it? Oneka Jun 2012 #19
Right Wing Holder is Part of the Effort to Take Down Obama!!1@!!!1 TPaine7 Jun 2012 #21
"minor issues with the Fortune story." Oneka Jun 2012 #26
The truth is out there. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #24
I would have only one question for Holder gejohnston Jun 2012 #22
The idiots in question Oneka Jul 2012 #67
Intentional or accidental the results were still the same. Remmah2 Jun 2012 #28
From the article: PavePusher Jun 2012 #31
The OP seems to have found your questions inconvenient, as they have gone missing. friendly_iconoclast Jul 2012 #49
Yeah, typical. n/t PavePusher Jul 2012 #50
locking jpak Jun 2012 #37
Delusions of being a host... Clames Jul 2012 #47
And perhaps if his behavior didn't match Simo 1939_1940 Jul 2012 #48
It's a fascinating lie to protect shady American gun sellers. DirkGently Jul 2012 #51
So who ordered this? Oneka Jul 2012 #52
Why do you insist on quoting the article out of context? DanTex Jul 2012 #53
pushing a conspiracy theory! Oneka Jul 2012 #54
Yes, the quote is from the Fortune article, but you took it out of context. DanTex Jul 2012 #55
"Out of context" TPaine7 Jul 2012 #57
If you look up a few posts, you will see that Oneka highlighted this part of the passage in bold DanTex Jul 2012 #58
Oneka can correct me if I'm wrong, TPaine7 Jul 2012 #60
Let's try this again: we don't know why Holder said that. DanTex Jul 2012 #63
I think, rationally speaking, we have a very good idea why Holder said what he said. IT WAS TRUE. TPaine7 Jul 2012 #69
The skill you need to work on is tolerance of uncertainty. DanTex Jul 2012 #70
Translation: Oneka Jul 2012 #72
Do I smell a whiff of irony there? Euromutt Jul 2012 #79
No correction neccassarry Oneka Jul 2012 #65
Here are some questions: gejohnston Jul 2012 #61
so this Fortune article is accusing a whisleblowing agent of gejohnston Jul 2012 #75
I find it interesting that CBS news has also done a series of reports on Fast and Furious ... spin Jul 2012 #56
What I find interesting is that the very mention of guns "causing deaths"... DanTex Jul 2012 #59
Guns don't kill people; guns don't cause deaths. TPaine7 Jul 2012 #62
I don't feel that many gun owners would say that allowing firearms to end up in the hands ... spin Jul 2012 #64
Amy Goodman became loony gun blogger? gejohnston Jul 2012 #76
*That* will be ignored, as it doesn't fit the meme being pushed in the OP. friendly_iconoclast Jul 2012 #77
But... but... but... Rhodes Scholar... climate change denial... gun bloggers... right wing TPaine7 Jul 2012 #78
LOOK ME IN THE EYE.. Oneka Jul 2012 #80
An opposing view from someone in the House oversight comittee ,long read, but informative. Oneka Aug 2012 #83
LOL. "someone in the House oversight committee" = Darrell Issa DanTex Aug 2012 #85
one has supporting evidence, the other only claims it. gejohnston Aug 2012 #86
No evidence it came from Issa? Are you joking? DanTex Aug 2012 #87
you are ignoring facts, backed up by evidence presented gejohnston Aug 2012 #88
Your interlocutor relies on the argument from authority, and its flipside the genetic fallacy. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #89
The irony... DanTex Aug 2012 #91
All the better reason for you to detail the factual errors in the linked *.pdf friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #92
Wow, you are even more clueless than I thought! DanTex Aug 2012 #90
Project much? gejohnston Aug 2012 #93
This message was self-deleted by its author friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #94
Well, then- get busy fisking the document linked in post #83. Point out the errors. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #95
Sorry, I'm not going through 300 pages of right-wing propaganda... DanTex Aug 2012 #96
you don't know the difference between a magazine article and a report? gejohnston Aug 2012 #97
Ooh! Terminology! DanTex Aug 2012 #98
In other words, substance and logic are not your strong suit gejohnston Aug 2012 #99
LOL. You are slowly going off the deep end on this one. DanTex Aug 2012 #100
what conspiracy theory? gejohnston Aug 2012 #103
Your "points" are completely divorced from reality. DanTex Aug 2012 #105
you have no idea how the system works gejohnston Aug 2012 #108
This is hilarious, coming from the guy who didn't think that Darrell Issa authored of the... DanTex Aug 2012 #111
I was seeing if you could back something you said up gejohnston Aug 2012 #113
Well, at the very least I know that the Issa-Grassley report... DanTex Aug 2012 #114
Where is Cumming's document saying it is full of shit? gejohnston Aug 2012 #116
What are you talking about? DanTex Aug 2012 #119
Where is Cumming's document contradicting Issa's? gejohnston Aug 2012 #120
You should ask Cummings that question. And ask the US attorneys about the documents and the trials. DanTex Aug 2012 #123
I can reason under uncertainty quite well gejohnston Aug 2012 #124
Really? You read the whole thing? Well, I have a question. DanTex Aug 2012 #125
because I figured you didn't read it gejohnston Aug 2012 #126
You don't address the substance of what's said, but complain about the source? Genetic fallacy... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #101
LOL. You sure know your logic buzzwords! DanTex Aug 2012 #102
where is yours? gejohnston Aug 2012 #104
Theme and variation on "Eban good, Issa bad, those that question it are fools. Take my word on it". friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #106
LOL. You're failing! You won't make the 8th grade team if you can't do better than that! DanTex Aug 2012 #107
where is yours? gejohnston Aug 2012 #109
Not my job. You claim "Issa's" work is bogus, so demonstrate the bogosity. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #110
Actually, you are the one claiming Eban's work is bogus. DanTex Aug 2012 #112
Not so; I said the defense of her work by citations of her credentials is... friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #115
Of course! DanTex Aug 2012 #117
don't most investigative reporters gejohnston Aug 2012 #118
Investigative reporters speak truth. DanTex Aug 2012 #121
I haven't seen any one claiming any such thing gejohnston Aug 2012 #122
Without a dump of those "2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents", Eban is cherry-picking. friendly_iconoclast Aug 2012 #129
what a crock of shit. UnRec. Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2012 #130
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