Religion

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)

50. opinions and behaviors are pathologized all the time.

Mon Apr 28, 2014, 04:57 PM

Apr 2014

delusions are an example.

Sure a "belief in isolation" whatever that might be, is not any from of illness. It is the combination of belief and action (or inaction even) that becomes problematic. If I obsess about something but that obsession does not cause me to act, it is not clear at all that I have an obsession. If I have a delusional belief that a giant rabbit is sitting next to me but I never act on that belief, it is not clear to me that I can be said to have this delusional belief in any meaningful way. If I have a delusional belief that my child is possessed by a demon and act on that belief, it is not a delusion in the psychiatric sense if I go to a priest and have the demon removed, but if I perform the removal myself and bad things happen, then I have a psychotic delusion.

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Religion a mental illness? [View all] snooper2 Apr 2014 OP

Interesting take on an issue many refuse to face... Tikki Apr 2014 #1

This subject was covered at length recently on DU;a dozen quotes from shrinks say it IS "delusion" Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #128

Please stop this pretense. TM99 Apr 2014 #142

Let people decide for themselves. See the professional quote on post # 153 Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #169

Why? TM99 Apr 2014 #200

This article 1) is in a professional psych journal 2)by the working head of a major LA psych clinic; Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #218

You appear to be a broken record. TM99 Apr 2014 #219

"Consensus" can be herd rule. The article is by a respected practitioner and Med. school teacher Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #222

My last reply to you on this topic. TM99 Apr 2014 #230

All your "answers" were addressed by me in earlier posts on DU. Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #236

I can't play the video. Is there a link to text somewhere? cbayer Apr 2014 #2

no text I don't think she transcribes her videos snooper2 Apr 2014 #3

I will try and watch it when I am in a place with better bandwidth. cbayer Apr 2014 #4

It should be considered such phil89 Apr 2014 #5

I think all the believers I know are very stable and sane people including myself. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #6

I'm a sane believer. 840high Apr 2014 #105

Me too. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #106

So we have here a self-validating belief.... Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #129

Whatever! hrmjustin Apr 2014 #147

So mentally ill people are unstable and insane? MellowDem Apr 2014 #107

I never made any statement on the mentally ill. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #108

Your implication was clear as day... MellowDem Apr 2014 #110

This why I don't bother. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #111

You responded to a post that... MellowDem Apr 2014 #112

You keep going if you like but I think I am done. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #113

Thank goodness... MellowDem Apr 2014 #116

I never implied that and you are putting words in my mouth. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #117

No, your post speaks very clearly for itself MellowDem Apr 2014 #118

My intent was clear. all the believers I know are perfectly sane people. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #119

But the post you replied to... MellowDem Apr 2014 #124

Good night. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #125

The post he was replying to said that believers are mentally ill Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2014 #149

Thank you. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #152

Only if you think the mentally ill are insane... MellowDem Apr 2014 #246

For almost all speakers of the English language Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2014 #247

And they're wrong... MellowDem Apr 2014 #250

So how does "insanity" and "mental illness" differ, in your opinion Fortinbras Armstrong May 2014 #255

Insanity is a severe type of mental illness... MellowDem May 2014 #260

"insanity" is not an illness at all. cbayer May 2014 #261

Then you just contradicted yourself again... MellowDem May 2014 #262

No, I didn't. cbayer May 2014 #263

This is what you said.... MellowDem May 2014 #267

This is a ludicrous argument and more akin to religion than to science. cbayer May 2014 #269

What we consider "disordered" is completely subjective... MellowDem May 2014 #271

Are you not aware of the research being done in the fields of psychiatry cbayer May 2014 #273

Feel free to present any actual evidence you have skepticscott May 2014 #274

It doesn't matter how much research they do... MellowDem May 2014 #278

I don't think you really understand how medical diagnosis are made. cbayer May 2014 #279

What we label a disorder is subjective... MellowDem May 2014 #280

No,it's not. cbayer May 2014 #281

What is the objective source of what is or isn't a pathology... MellowDem May 2014 #282

Sorry, but if you think cancer is a subjective diagnosis, cbayer May 2014 #283

You're the one claiming there is an objective source of mental illness... MellowDem May 2014 #284

Oh, I see. Insanity is a type of mental illness. Fortinbras Armstrong May 2014 #268

All felonies are crimes, but not all crimes are felonies skepticscott May 2014 #272

However, he seemed to be saying is that insanity and mental illness are wholly different Fortinbras Armstrong May 2014 #277

Say what? Both are terms used to describe psychiatric illness. cbayer Apr 2014 #248

By looking at the definition of words? MellowDem Apr 2014 #251

Do you have any credentials at all cbayer Apr 2014 #252

You just said mental illness was synonymous with insanity... MellowDem Apr 2014 #253

I didn't say they were synonymous, but I see our point. cbayer Apr 2014 #254

"Mental disorders" is the term preferred by experts in the field skepticscott May 2014 #275

Ssssshhhhhh! okasha May 2014 #266

You know, when certain people around here start talking about psychiatric disorders, cbayer May 2014 #270

Do you think the professional organizations, like the APA and ApA cbayer Apr 2014 #8

Yes, they'd be honest and consistent then... MellowDem Apr 2014 #109

Oh, my. Welcome to the thread! cbayer Apr 2014 #167

mellow dem has been added to the official shit list. Warren Stupidity Aug 2014 #288

So the Bible is offensive, when it says religion, worship, is often "delusion"? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #130

For the record, here is Rev. 13:9-10 (which I guess is what etc. means) cbayer Apr 2014 #168

Typo. Rev. 13.8 ff Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #171

The Bible Clearly Discusses Religious Delusions, On the Road Aug 2014 #285

We do have the following: muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #221

Er, yeah. The word delusion is used in the bible. cbayer Apr 2014 #223

Specifically it is used to warn about false ideas, often, specifically in religion Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #226

Oh, but you are wrong. Only a very few allow it. cbayer Apr 2014 #229

While you are one of those believers who ignore the Bible utterly? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #231

I am not a believer but I have found many parts of the bible useful cbayer Apr 2014 #232

It's saying it about other religions (nt) muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #227

Well, it's talking about false prophets, which could be other religions. cbayer Apr 2014 #228

BG asked "So the Bible is offensive, when it says religion, worship, is often "delusion"?" muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #233

None of the quotes you put up say "religion, worship, is often delusion". cbayer Apr 2014 #235

They call false gods, idolatries and the ideas of false prophets delusions muriel_volestrangler Apr 2014 #239

I was not aware that ignore did not work on jury duty. cbayer Apr 2014 #240

Um, not quite Warpy Apr 2014 #104

Ah, so the real reason comes out... MellowDem Apr 2014 #114

No, the real reason is that there are no voices in their heads Warpy Apr 2014 #120

The beliefs are still mental illnesses... MellowDem Apr 2014 #126

I know that I am not supposed to decry bigotry from atheists Fortinbras Armstrong Apr 2014 #155

? Lots of preachers, and most of the prophets, tell us that God "spoke" to them Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #127

The prophets were usually bonkers. The waves of religious zealotry in Europe Warpy Apr 2014 #210

Its called Faith yeoman6987 Apr 2014 #182

that the DSM makes a specific and explicit exception for religion... mike_c Apr 2014 #7

"likely made to avoid hurting religionists' feelings"? rug Apr 2014 #9

Simple logic. Dr. Pierre & others suggested religious delusion can become normative/accepted Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #131

No, it's listed as an exemption because it's not a mental illness. cbayer Apr 2014 #10

evidence of falsehood.... mike_c Apr 2014 #12

You have no evidence for the non-existence of a god. cbayer Apr 2014 #13

And there you go, right into personal attack instead of discussing the issue. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #17

Evidence nil desperandum Apr 2014 #22

In a situation where there is no evidence to either support or disprove cbayer Apr 2014 #25

Understood nil desperandum Apr 2014 #27

The question you ask in your third paragraph is one for professionals in the cbayer Apr 2014 #35

THANKS nil desperandum Apr 2014 #172

What purpose do these attacks serve? trotsky Apr 2014 #24

You mean the suggestion that believers are mentally ill? el_bryanto Apr 2014 #177

It is sad that they don't get it. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #183

Who made that attack? Go after them. trotsky Apr 2014 #199

Ah - but since you never criticize people for making that argument el_bryanto Apr 2014 #204

Just as you've had opportunities to criticize foul shit in this group, trotsky Apr 2014 #206

If I saw those posts I'd criticize them el_bryanto Apr 2014 #207

I have the person who said them on ignore, so linking directly would be tricky. trotsky Apr 2014 #212

Really? You haven't been reading this thread at all? el_bryanto Apr 2014 #213

A delusion is a false belief. That's all. trotsky Apr 2014 #216

I guess you are right - el_bryanto Apr 2014 #217

Do you even understand how evidence works? skepticscott Apr 2014 #60

Actually the burden of proof falls to they who make the assertion. JNelson6563 Apr 2014 #195

You may have missed the whole point of this subthread. cbayer Apr 2014 #196

Lack evidence isn't why religious belief is not considered by the APA to be delusional Act_of_Reparation Apr 2014 #14

Agree, there is that as well cbayer Apr 2014 #16

Is that offered as your professional opinion? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #133

So the exact same belief is psychotic delusion in one person and normal in another. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #18

Probably not. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2014 #23

well for example demonic possession. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #30

The distinction isn't really that arbitrary Act_of_Reparation Apr 2014 #43

So the RCC office of excorcism is staffed by what sort of people exactly? Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #48

Gullible people who have put their trust in an unreliable authority. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2014 #49

So the gullible highly educated priest who terrorizes a child with an exorcism Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #52

Pretty much. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2014 #88

I'll agree with most of that. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #90

Just to confirm - all believers are dishonest and/or thoughtless in your worldview? nt el_bryanto Apr 2014 #179

Consider cults. Where lots of stupid people believe the same shit. Partly social; partly psychology Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #134

I think that's an excellent point... mike_c Apr 2014 #20

You know what this reminds me of? cbayer Apr 2014 #21

Deja vu all over again. okasha Apr 2014 #123

No shit. cbayer Apr 2014 #164

This is my takeaway from these discussions, also. stone space Aug 2014 #286

People that want to convert or de-convert are equally noxious. cbayer Aug 2014 #287

Religious delusion is already considered to be pathological by the APA Act_of_Reparation Apr 2014 #115

Evidence: we cited a half dozen psychiatrists including Freud, saying "all religion is delusion" Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #132

Hey, BG. There are at least 3 other like minded people in this thread. cbayer Apr 2014 #170

Religious groups often exclude those who differ. By shunning; faction; censorship; execution Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #173

Hmmmm el_bryanto Apr 2014 #184

What do you know! Bigots tend to do that, religious or not. cbayer Apr 2014 #187

That's called "shunning" and "Denial." Quite common in religious communities Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #189

Do you have such evidence? AlbertCat May 2014 #256

No, that is not evidence. cbayer May 2014 #257

despite clear evidence that it is not. AlbertCat May 2014 #258

The evidence can be found in the professional journals of the experts cbayer May 2014 #259

You apparently don't understand science, then skepticscott May 2014 #264

Well, isn't that special. Iggo Apr 2014 #11

her theory that all adults make a choice about religious belief is not compelling. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #15

I think in the modern world it is more about "fitting in" snooper2 Apr 2014 #19

Ok I am a Christian. Am I ill for believing in God? hrmjustin Apr 2014 #26

you tell me.... mike_c Apr 2014 #28

Well I asked. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #29

the irony is that I am EASILY converted.... mike_c Apr 2014 #31

I am not here to convert you and I am not delusional or ill in any way. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #32

But you are ill, justin! cbayer Apr 2014 #36

I hate it when people say we are deluded or ill. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #39

There is everything to hate about it. I hate it too. cbayer Apr 2014 #41

Post removed Post removed Apr 2014 #136

Maybe it's not the deity's job to show himself/herself/itself to YOU. Common Sense Party Apr 2014 #51

Not what the Bible said Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #135

I wanted to let you know that I quoted you in another thread. cbayer Apr 2014 #249

Oh, dear. I must be in trouble again. Common Sense Party May 2014 #265

I think the proper question here is whether LTX Apr 2014 #91

I agree with you for the most part.... mike_c Apr 2014 #97

Oh, dear. Does that mean you might be at an evolutionary disadvantage. cbayer Apr 2014 #174

Not this bullshit again! TM99 Apr 2014 #33

Yeah it gets like a broken record after awhile. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #34

Well, not to diagnose, but perseverance seems to be a problem. rug Apr 2014 #37

Who has persevered in the face of contrary facts, more than Christians? 2,000 years of perseverance Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #137

And what's really hilarious is that the person in the video says that it's not. cbayer Apr 2014 #38

It must be so annoying when somebody starts a discussion you don't approve of. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #47

c'mon cbayer, that's just lame.... mike_c Apr 2014 #55

No, mike_c, what is lame is that someone who apparently considers themselves cbayer Apr 2014 #57

Did you even watch the video? snooper2 Apr 2014 #161

Of course, I watched it. TM99 Apr 2014 #197

no more than Niceguy1 Apr 2014 #40

Can't watch the video Prophet 451 Apr 2014 #42

It's a hateful tactic born of privilege and nourished in the self-perception of rationality. rug Apr 2014 #44

Do you feel that labelling any delusion as mental illness is wrong, or a hateful tactic? phil89 Apr 2014 #54

Believing in God is not a mental illness. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #56

The bible was written by people with mental illness. Obsession with numbers, cleanliness, rituals, phil89 Apr 2014 #66

How do you know? did you talk to them? hrmjustin Apr 2014 #68

The "Were you there" argument. Do I need to have been? phil89 Apr 2014 #76

Well when you go through time you let me know how it went. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #78

Luckily I don't need to...the evidence is right there phil89 Apr 2014 #79

which parts are written by mentally ill people? hrmjustin Apr 2014 #80

You can't prove that they were not mentally ill. cleanhippie Apr 2014 #190

Ken Ham has joined the thread? pokerfan Apr 2014 #241

So when they saw God and demons, and talked to them? And saw giant miracles? That's all OK with you? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #139

I believe in some of those miracles. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #143

How about the other ones? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #146

Some I believe are allegorical. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #148

Some things in religion are allegorical ... meaning not entirely, literally true Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #156

You understand I and others find this insulting. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #157

The Bible itself often said much of religion is delusional Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #158

That is not the same thing and you know it. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #159

I am absolutely honest when I suggest that Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #160

I have no doubt you are being honest. that is not in question. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #162

So if Jesus and God said there are often false things in religion ... Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #165

Your talking about human beings and very human institutions so yes. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #166

God often used the word "delusion" to warn about false things in religion. Was God insulting people Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #175

Thats all nice and good but I think the motives are different. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #176

My motives are exactly the same Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #178

I thinks Gods motives wrre different. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #181

I think Gods motive was to correct bad things in religion; that is also my motive Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #188

What do you want to correct about religion? hrmjustin Apr 2014 #191

Many things are wrong. But first? The belief in literal physical miracles, "all" we "ask." Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #192

Well I am not going to give up my belief in the miracles of the bible because it offends or bothers hrmjustin Apr 2014 #194

Yet you want others to give up certain behaviors because they offend or bother you. Dark n Stormy Knight Apr 2014 #203

What behaviors do I want people to give up? hrmjustin Apr 2014 #205

Why are you telling other poster's that their beliefs are insulting or offensive if not because you Dark n Stormy Knight Apr 2014 #214

I have decided to step away from this room for awhile. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #215

OMG! Not only are you a mental health professional able to diagnosis cbayer Apr 2014 #69

. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #70

It's common sense. And I can cite a source if you like, he makes the argument quite well. phil89 Apr 2014 #75

Sorry, psychiatry, psychology and the diagnosis and treatment of psychiatric disorders cbayer Apr 2014 #82

do you mind if I inquire about YOUR credentials, cbayer.... mike_c Apr 2014 #94

Yes, I am completely qualified, but it doesn't really matter, because I am not cbayer Apr 2014 #163

Has Ms. cbayer done a residency in Psychology? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #185

Sapolsky certainly does assert that the authors of the bible phil89 Apr 2014 #242

Be he right or wrong, he's got the credentials to offer an opinion. cbayer Apr 2014 #244

Common sense? Common sense that the bible writters were mentally ill? hrmjustin Apr 2014 #83

Is Ms. cbayer a professional psychologist? There are many quoted here who contradict her. Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #140

No they do not. TM99 Apr 2014 #145

Are direct quotes from professional journals trolling? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #154

They are when misunderstood TM99 Apr 2014 #202

See posts 218, 153, etc. Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #220

Is this an attempt at satire? n/t LTX Apr 2014 #96

OMG! How, like AWESOME! !!! okasha Apr 2014 #103

So when the ancients saw God and the devil, and talking snakes,we cannot be sure anything was wrong? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #141

See, there it is - a label. rug Apr 2014 #93

Wrong. phil89 Apr 2014 #243

Of course it's an actual insult. rug Apr 2014 #245

then for pete's sake quit whining about it and dispel the "bullshit...." mike_c Apr 2014 #58

no one here said religion is a protected activity. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #62

then why is it a "hateful tactic" to question the obvious parallel... mike_c Apr 2014 #63

I can't speak for rug but considering the attitude displayed in this thread towards hrmjustin Apr 2014 #64

you can't have it both ways.... mike_c Apr 2014 #71

I would like to be respected and not called things like ill or deluded. NOT TOO MUCH TO ASK. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #77

well look, I'm asking for you to share your thoughts, and I'm listening respectfully.... mike_c Apr 2014 #84

Respectfully? calling people who are religious deluded or socially ill is respectful? hrmjustin Apr 2014 #86

ok, I apologize for the obtuse questions.... mike_c Apr 2014 #89

Well we all don't kill one another. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #92

please-- tell it to the dead, the maimed, the dispossessed, and the disenfranchised.... mike_c Apr 2014 #95

Yeah that is what I expected. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #98

"People experience the divine in different ways." okasha Apr 2014 #121

Yes that is how I see it. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #122

Though various religions often go to war with each other, over religion? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #144

Did you read response #42? What do you have to say to that? cbayer Apr 2014 #67

nothing in particular.... mike_c Apr 2014 #73

Broad brush statements. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #81

which ones to you object to? mike_c Apr 2014 #85

I object to you broad brush statment. hrmjustin Apr 2014 #87

But clearly most religious people here are even explicitly uncomfortable with it.... Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #150

I'm uncomfortable with a floating turd in a swimming pool/ rug Apr 2014 #209

Well, mike, I'm not one to whine. rug Apr 2014 #99

you're right.... mike_c Apr 2014 #100

Here: rug Apr 2014 #102

Snippish doesn't even come close to describing how you come off. cbayer Apr 2014 #180

But we CAN call mentally ill people mentally ill? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #151

Wow, what a profound and personal post. cbayer Apr 2014 #45

Nobody is claiming anything much more than "some religious beliefs are delusions". Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #53

Though you are not saying it, Freud said "all religion is delusion"; Dr. Pierre, Journ. Psych. Prac. Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #153

Thank you. Nothing can trump first hand experience. Kudos, Prophet 451. pinto Apr 2014 #101

That's the video's main point. But look up socially-acquired psychosis Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #138

No. LeftishBrit Apr 2014 #46

opinions and behaviors are pathologized all the time. Warren Stupidity Apr 2014 #50

Thaks, LB. I think you bring up some excellent points and some of cbayer Apr 2014 #72

LOL (nt) pinto Apr 2014 #59

You've got that right. cbayer Apr 2014 #61

Why did you leave the the phrase with "No" out of your c & p of this? cbayer Apr 2014 #65

since you've chosen to make such a point of this... mike_c Apr 2014 #74

It depends (and in my opinion), on how far from reality your religion takes you. PDJane Apr 2014 #186

I think her accent is beautiful, she is Romanian you know snooper2 Apr 2014 #193

So, why did you editorialize her title line and leave out the phrase including the word "No"? cbayer Apr 2014 #198

I don't know WTF you are going on about... snooper2 Apr 2014 #201

No, the title of her video, from her own web site, is: cbayer Apr 2014 #208

Took it straight from YouTube where I am subscribed to her, she has 96K subscribers snooper2 Apr 2014 #211

Were you aware that DU covered essentially this same subject very recently? Brettongarcia Apr 2014 #224

are you questioning my authorita! snooper2 Apr 2014 #225

I don't think you are an undercover agent for the NSA, snooper, cbayer Apr 2014 #234

I thought this would get like 6 replies and sink, what you don't know right? snooper2 Apr 2014 #237

Not only do I not think it is a mental illness, I am vehemently opposed to cbayer Apr 2014 #238

I have learned that arguing religion is less rewarding than randys1 May 2014 #276