Atheists & Agnostics

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)

133. Indeed we should.

Wed Jan 18, 2012, 09:54 PM

Jan 2012

However, when I say, "I have experienced something that makes me think I might have a soul" and people immediately respond with "Show me your evidence", that tells me that evidence is being valued over experience.

Of course that reaction isn't universal, even in our industrialized, science-driven culture. On FB part of my community consists of visionary artists, non-dualist mystics and people who call themselves "lightworkers". All of them place a very high premium on direct personal experience relative to objective evidence. I feel quite at home there - most of those people are very open-minded and non-confrontational which makes for quite pleasant interpersonal experiences. The other part of my circle tends to be evidence-driven ecologists and environmentalists who are drowning in despair. Guess which bunch I prefer...

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Do we have souls? [View all] Starboard Tack Jan 2012 OP

yes barbtries Jan 2012 #1

"life would be so much harder if i didn't believe we'll be together again" awoke_in_2003 Jan 2012 #5

i did all that barbtries Jan 2012 #6

I hope you are right. ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #33

thank you, barbtries Jan 2012 #37

I don't believe in a soul as you define it FarCenter Jan 2012 #2

We have consciousness. Neoma Jan 2012 #3

I feel pretty much the same way. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #61

I think maybe... GliderGuider Jan 2012 #4

i like the way you put that. barbtries Jan 2012 #8

Deep meditation is like that Warpy Jan 2012 #11

Very well put. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #20

Humans (and possibly other semi-sentient animals) can believe anything if they want to bad enough. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #21

That's true. It's why I'm practicing the suspension of all belief and disbelief. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #38

I don't. laconicsax Jan 2012 #7

I have seen evidence on several occasions and in different ways Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #22

If you don't mind, would you care to tell us the nature of that evidence? laconicsax Jan 2012 #25

Apparently, Mr. Tack is unwilling to share his "evidence" with us. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #68

I have seen evidence on several occasions and in different ways AlbertCat Jan 2012 #71

I don't believe it because someone told me I had a soul. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #93

I don't believe it because someone told me I had a soul. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #114

"It's been drummed into you since birth." Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #119

A ghost, in my experience, is the manifestation of the soul in the form of ectoplasm. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #148

What would be your explanation? I didn't make it up. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #151

I think you just showed your hand, and you are pulling our chains here. Nice job. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #152

See my post #151 Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #154

"I am still highly skeptical of ghosts" - But that contradicts your statement that you DO believe in cleanhippie Jan 2012 #159

No, I was answering a question about the difference between ghosts and souls. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #163

I also do not think the soul is confined to human existence, but possibly is inherent to all things. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #150

Note, I said possibly. It's a thought. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #155

You seem to be moving the goalposts, ST. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #160

What extraordinary claims have I made? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #161

Hmm, let's see. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #162

I don't see anything extraordinary about any of that. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #164

Riiight. Ok then. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #165

I dunno, is there an invisible unicorn prancing around the moon? EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #9

Humans may be temporary "creatures", but that is a limited definition Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #24

Personal experiences (or anecdotes) are not evidence EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #27

When I look back over deep human history, GliderGuider Jan 2012 #46

I don't dismiss creativity or imagination EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #100

No, you make sense - I get what you mean. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #108

But, shouldn't we be able have both? EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #129

Indeed we should. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #133

Damn, I wish I'd said that. rrneck Jan 2012 #137

I said I have evidence, not proof. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #62

Evidence IS proof. You either have it, or you don't. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #69

I do not believe we have souls. Curmudgeoness Jan 2012 #10

Why do you think souls must be related to a god? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #26

The concept of a soul means a belief that there is something after death. Curmudgeoness Jan 2012 #30

I don't see the soul as something after death Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #81

There is that pesky word "spiritual". Curmudgeoness Jan 2012 #105

I don't believe we have souls either. onager Jan 2012 #43

You put your finger on it----- Curmudgeoness Jan 2012 #107

You can believe anything you want to, but your belief is baseless DavidDvorkin Jan 2012 #12

You believe that, do you? GliderGuider Jan 2012 #13

There is no reason to believe anything else. DavidDvorkin Jan 2012 #14

Could you define "reason" in your sentence above? GliderGuider Jan 2012 #16

"Reason" as in evidence, data DavidDvorkin Jan 2012 #17

Just so. n/t GliderGuider Jan 2012 #39

sums it up for me as well Armin-A Jan 2012 #29

I'm not talking about the brain. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #31

A lack of belief in fantastic claims doesn't require any evidence, it is the default condition. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #36

I think it is possible that some humans, or those who pose as humans, may not have souls. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #45

You really should look into Pyrrhonism. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #47

Interesting. Reminds me of Descartes. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #49

I doubt it. ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #15

If so, they are mortal. Deep13 Jan 2012 #18

It's what some call consciousness and feelings. Not me. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #85

Yup, across dimensions... Deep13 Jan 2012 #102

Do you really think you are aware of all dimensions? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #104

Sure. On our shoes. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #19

Why am I surprised that you would be so insightful? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #32

Because your expectations are low since few people are your intellectual equal, I imagine. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #35

And your shoes are fishy Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #86

I know, my wife sat on them. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #87

Disgustingly sexist. Are you in grade school? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #103

My wife is a guy...like me. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #124

Then why would you use such puerile mysoginistic humor? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #125

Congrats on the "puerile" wordsmithing. If you had spelled "misogynistic" correctly, Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #131

Thank dog. Ciao! Chow! Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #134

No Ron Obvious Jan 2012 #23

Why do we have to define a soul in that way? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #41

If you redefine the word "soul", then is it really still a soul? EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #42

Nobody is throwing out the meaning. We're clarifying it. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #59

From whence did you copy and paste that? Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #88

It looks like it came from an Indonesian psychology paper published last year. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #89

Well golly, and to think I was skeptical... Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #90

Self-delete - wrong place GliderGuider Jan 2012 #94

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_and_animus Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #91

I should have guessed. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #92

Not much for depth psychology either, eh? GliderGuider Jan 2012 #96

So does melanoma. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #98

Ah, but depth psychology can heal old wounds, rather than creating new ones... GliderGuider Jan 2012 #99

What's left Ron Obvious Jan 2012 #50

The soul is what's left Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #55

I don't know what you mean by a soul then. Ron Obvious Jan 2012 #97

The soul is an intangible entity Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #101

The soul is maybe one's essential character AlbertCat Jan 2012 #72

Yes. And it's constantly getting me into trouble rrneck Jan 2012 #28

I think that you are confusing soul with conscience, but Curmudgeoness Jan 2012 #34

The golden rule... rrneck Jan 2012 #40

I would buy that definition of a soul then. Curmudgeoness Jan 2012 #110

That sounds like mirror neurons in action. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #111

It's close but rrneck Jan 2012 #132

Why confusing soul with conscience? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #44

The problem is that religions have appropriated the concept of the soul so completely GliderGuider Jan 2012 #48

Funny, I never felt that the soul concept had been appropriated by religion Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #51

That's entirely as it should be IMO. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #64

You are still considering the soul to be existing separate from Curmudgeoness Jan 2012 #109

Yes, I believe each living being has a soul, or the potential to have a soul. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #112

I'm not sure I can adequately answer that question. rrneck Jan 2012 #135

+1 GliderGuider Jan 2012 #136

I'm with you there. It's a tough one to define. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #145

Not only is it imposdible to define rrneck Jan 2012 #146

I think the seed of doubt was planted in me OriginalGeek Jan 2012 #52

My point is, you can be godless, but still have soul. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #56

Yes I think I understand your point OriginalGeek Jan 2012 #58

I don't know if it continues after the body dies. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #60

. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #63

I am not even gonna pretend I can understand that kind of pain OriginalGeek Jan 2012 #73

That's fine but I don't really see it as a path. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #77

One does not depend on the other. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #75

This would probably be better discussed in Religion. onager Jan 2012 #53

Religion is a group now. laconicsax Jan 2012 #54

I do not associate having or recognizing one's soul with religion Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #57

Thank you. i_sometimes Jan 2012 #67

To my half cup of coffee eyes later, still full of stupid. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #76

My concept of soul has no bearing on anything I was told. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #79

My concept of soul has no bearing on anything I was told. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #115

Are you just here to insult and disrupt? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #123

Are you just here to insult and disrupt? AlbertCat Jan 2012 #138

Honestly no, I'm always puzzled by the concept of souls, they seem contradictory... Humanist_Activist Jan 2012 #65

No. Iggo Jan 2012 #66

Do we have souls? AlbertCat Jan 2012 #70

Question - Do you accept infinity? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #82

Or do you believe existence itself is finite? AlbertCat Jan 2012 #116

I asked if you thought existence itself was finite, not your existence. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #122

Do you think all other existence ceases when you die? Simple question. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #139

If you want to have a discussion with me I'll be happy to oblige. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #144

No PVnRT Jan 2012 #74

What are souls exactly? Why should we have them? What are the indications that we do/do not? dmallind Jan 2012 #78

If you have one, you'll know what it is, though I doubt you'll be able to adequately describe it. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #83

Looking for the soul in neuroscience is like looking for the stars at noon. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #117

Knowing where something is and seeing it are two different things. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #121

Knowing where something is and seeing it are two different things. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #140

No frogmarch Jan 2012 #80

You may well be correct. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #84

I've been thinking some more about how I experience that "soul-sense" GliderGuider Jan 2012 #95

Very well put. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #106

Endorphins will do that to you. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #118

Interesting you should mention acid. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #120

"Have you ever experienced anything you would call a soul?" AlbertCat Jan 2012 #141

One great disservice (among many) that religion did for humanity GliderGuider Jan 2012 #147

I have seen no evidence of a soul uriel1972 Jan 2012 #113

Do you only believe what can be proven by empirical evidence? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #126

You ask that as if it's a bad thing EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #127

How do you arrive at that concusion from a simple question? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #128

Because I've seen the question too many times to count EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #130

How do you arrive at that concusion from a simple question? AlbertCat Jan 2012 #142

Ah, I see. Different rules for different people Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #143

knowing what is real, like my own eyes, my own ears, AlbertCat Jan 2012 #149

"How am I to take someone who thinks ectoplasm is real seriously?" cleanhippie Jan 2012 #153

When four people witness the same event, I give it some credibility. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #156

When four people witness the same event, I give it some credibility. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #157

We were not disposed to see the event. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #158

Sometimes I wonder if simply random dna can account for all of the differences lindysalsagal Jan 2012 #166

I'm sure lots of truths have been discovered by wondering. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #193

Our brains are information-processing organs, not supernatural radio receivers. n/t backscatter712 Jan 2012 #167

I agree Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #168

Why do you think these concepts have nothing to do with our brain power? darkstar3 Jan 2012 #169

Because that would exclude those with diminished brain power Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #170

Uh huh...Have you ever dealt with a relative darkstar3 Jan 2012 #171

Have I ever dealt with such things? Unfortunately, yes. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #172

That's a treacle-sweet phrase, "his soul is untouched and shines through..." darkstar3 Jan 2012 #173

Some of us see things that others don't. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #176

Some of us see things that aren't there, like ghosts and demons. darkstar3 Jan 2012 #177

Not everything that exists is quantifiable. Feelings and thoughts, ideas, concepts e.g. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #178

True, however that which you can see generally is. darkstar3 Jan 2012 #180

If it was legal would you be interested? GliderGuider Jan 2012 #182

Since you're jumping in here, perhaps you can answer the question darkstar3 Jan 2012 #183

What does "see beyond brain chemistry" mean? GliderGuider Jan 2012 #184

So you don't have an answer. darkstar3 Jan 2012 #185

No, I don't. Not one that will satisfy you. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #186

That's because your frame of reference is made up of much that is made up. darkstar3 Jan 2012 #187

Some of us see things that others don't. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #188

But the ONLY place your sense of self and consciousness resides is your brain. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #190

You realize that's the God of the Gaps argument, right? darkstar3 Jan 2012 #194

More like the soul alongside argument Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #195

Your two arguments take advantage of the same logical fallacy, darkstar3 Jan 2012 #196

Yes. backscatter712 Jan 2012 #174

Many believe as you do. Maybe you're right. Maybe not. I think not. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #179

I think not. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #189

I'm somewhat familiar with Pinker, but haven't read his books. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #191

There may be "Two Solitudes" at work here. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #175

Brilliantly put, my friend. Your insight is inspirational. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #192

As far as I can tell, no. I am willing to be persuaded otherwise if verifiable, repeatable evidence Jean V. Dubois Jan 2012 #181