Atheists & Agnostics

GliderGuider

(21,088 posts)

147. One great disservice (among many) that religion did for humanity

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 07:40 AM

Jan 2012

...was to equate "soul" with "supernatural". That linkage has shut down a lot of potentially fruitful scientific and philosophical investigation, especially as the cultural gulf between the subjective and objective has grown since the Enlightenment. The concept of "soul" originally had a quite natural context, starting with ancient animist beliefs.

When I investigate my soul-sense it feels entirely natural. How could it not, since it springs from my own nature? For me this marks one of the most important dividing lines between religion and spirituality. Spirituality (for me at any rate) is personal, subjective, natural and liberating, while religion is impersonal, objective, supernatural and enslaving. I have a great sense of connection with the former, and nothing but contempt for the latter.

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Do we have souls? [View all] Starboard Tack Jan 2012 OP

yes barbtries Jan 2012 #1

"life would be so much harder if i didn't believe we'll be together again" awoke_in_2003 Jan 2012 #5

i did all that barbtries Jan 2012 #6

I hope you are right. ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #33

thank you, barbtries Jan 2012 #37

I don't believe in a soul as you define it FarCenter Jan 2012 #2

We have consciousness. Neoma Jan 2012 #3

I feel pretty much the same way. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #61

I think maybe... GliderGuider Jan 2012 #4

i like the way you put that. barbtries Jan 2012 #8

Deep meditation is like that Warpy Jan 2012 #11

Very well put. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #20

Humans (and possibly other semi-sentient animals) can believe anything if they want to bad enough. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #21

That's true. It's why I'm practicing the suspension of all belief and disbelief. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #38

I don't. laconicsax Jan 2012 #7

I have seen evidence on several occasions and in different ways Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #22

If you don't mind, would you care to tell us the nature of that evidence? laconicsax Jan 2012 #25

Apparently, Mr. Tack is unwilling to share his "evidence" with us. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #68

I have seen evidence on several occasions and in different ways AlbertCat Jan 2012 #71

I don't believe it because someone told me I had a soul. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #93

I don't believe it because someone told me I had a soul. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #114

"It's been drummed into you since birth." Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #119

A ghost, in my experience, is the manifestation of the soul in the form of ectoplasm. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #148

What would be your explanation? I didn't make it up. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #151

I think you just showed your hand, and you are pulling our chains here. Nice job. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #152

See my post #151 Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #154

"I am still highly skeptical of ghosts" - But that contradicts your statement that you DO believe in cleanhippie Jan 2012 #159

No, I was answering a question about the difference between ghosts and souls. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #163

I also do not think the soul is confined to human existence, but possibly is inherent to all things. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #150

Note, I said possibly. It's a thought. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #155

You seem to be moving the goalposts, ST. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #160

What extraordinary claims have I made? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #161

Hmm, let's see. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #162

I don't see anything extraordinary about any of that. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #164

Riiight. Ok then. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #165

I dunno, is there an invisible unicorn prancing around the moon? EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #9

Humans may be temporary "creatures", but that is a limited definition Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #24

Personal experiences (or anecdotes) are not evidence EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #27

When I look back over deep human history, GliderGuider Jan 2012 #46

I don't dismiss creativity or imagination EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #100

No, you make sense - I get what you mean. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #108

But, shouldn't we be able have both? EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #129

Indeed we should. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #133

Damn, I wish I'd said that. rrneck Jan 2012 #137

I said I have evidence, not proof. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #62

Evidence IS proof. You either have it, or you don't. cleanhippie Jan 2012 #69

I do not believe we have souls. Curmudgeoness Jan 2012 #10

Why do you think souls must be related to a god? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #26

The concept of a soul means a belief that there is something after death. Curmudgeoness Jan 2012 #30

I don't see the soul as something after death Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #81

There is that pesky word "spiritual". Curmudgeoness Jan 2012 #105

I don't believe we have souls either. onager Jan 2012 #43

You put your finger on it----- Curmudgeoness Jan 2012 #107

You can believe anything you want to, but your belief is baseless DavidDvorkin Jan 2012 #12

You believe that, do you? GliderGuider Jan 2012 #13

There is no reason to believe anything else. DavidDvorkin Jan 2012 #14

Could you define "reason" in your sentence above? GliderGuider Jan 2012 #16

"Reason" as in evidence, data DavidDvorkin Jan 2012 #17

Just so. n/t GliderGuider Jan 2012 #39

sums it up for me as well Armin-A Jan 2012 #29

I'm not talking about the brain. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #31

A lack of belief in fantastic claims doesn't require any evidence, it is the default condition. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #36

I think it is possible that some humans, or those who pose as humans, may not have souls. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #45

You really should look into Pyrrhonism. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #47

Interesting. Reminds me of Descartes. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #49

I doubt it. ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #15

If so, they are mortal. Deep13 Jan 2012 #18

It's what some call consciousness and feelings. Not me. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #85

Yup, across dimensions... Deep13 Jan 2012 #102

Do you really think you are aware of all dimensions? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #104

Sure. On our shoes. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #19

Why am I surprised that you would be so insightful? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #32

Because your expectations are low since few people are your intellectual equal, I imagine. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #35

And your shoes are fishy Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #86

I know, my wife sat on them. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #87

Disgustingly sexist. Are you in grade school? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #103

My wife is a guy...like me. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #124

Then why would you use such puerile mysoginistic humor? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #125

Congrats on the "puerile" wordsmithing. If you had spelled "misogynistic" correctly, Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #131

Thank dog. Ciao! Chow! Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #134

No Ron Obvious Jan 2012 #23

Why do we have to define a soul in that way? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #41

If you redefine the word "soul", then is it really still a soul? EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #42

Nobody is throwing out the meaning. We're clarifying it. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #59

From whence did you copy and paste that? Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #88

It looks like it came from an Indonesian psychology paper published last year. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #89

Well golly, and to think I was skeptical... Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #90

Self-delete - wrong place GliderGuider Jan 2012 #94

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_and_animus Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #91

I should have guessed. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #92

Not much for depth psychology either, eh? GliderGuider Jan 2012 #96

So does melanoma. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #98

Ah, but depth psychology can heal old wounds, rather than creating new ones... GliderGuider Jan 2012 #99

What's left Ron Obvious Jan 2012 #50

The soul is what's left Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #55

I don't know what you mean by a soul then. Ron Obvious Jan 2012 #97

The soul is an intangible entity Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #101

The soul is maybe one's essential character AlbertCat Jan 2012 #72

Yes. And it's constantly getting me into trouble rrneck Jan 2012 #28

I think that you are confusing soul with conscience, but Curmudgeoness Jan 2012 #34

The golden rule... rrneck Jan 2012 #40

I would buy that definition of a soul then. Curmudgeoness Jan 2012 #110

That sounds like mirror neurons in action. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #111

It's close but rrneck Jan 2012 #132

Why confusing soul with conscience? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #44

The problem is that religions have appropriated the concept of the soul so completely GliderGuider Jan 2012 #48

Funny, I never felt that the soul concept had been appropriated by religion Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #51

That's entirely as it should be IMO. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #64

You are still considering the soul to be existing separate from Curmudgeoness Jan 2012 #109

Yes, I believe each living being has a soul, or the potential to have a soul. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #112

I'm not sure I can adequately answer that question. rrneck Jan 2012 #135

+1 GliderGuider Jan 2012 #136

I'm with you there. It's a tough one to define. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #145

Not only is it imposdible to define rrneck Jan 2012 #146

I think the seed of doubt was planted in me OriginalGeek Jan 2012 #52

My point is, you can be godless, but still have soul. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #56

Yes I think I understand your point OriginalGeek Jan 2012 #58

I don't know if it continues after the body dies. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #60

. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #63

I am not even gonna pretend I can understand that kind of pain OriginalGeek Jan 2012 #73

That's fine but I don't really see it as a path. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #77

One does not depend on the other. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #75

This would probably be better discussed in Religion. onager Jan 2012 #53

Religion is a group now. laconicsax Jan 2012 #54

I do not associate having or recognizing one's soul with religion Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #57

Thank you. i_sometimes Jan 2012 #67

To my half cup of coffee eyes later, still full of stupid. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #76

My concept of soul has no bearing on anything I was told. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #79

My concept of soul has no bearing on anything I was told. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #115

Are you just here to insult and disrupt? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #123

Are you just here to insult and disrupt? AlbertCat Jan 2012 #138

Honestly no, I'm always puzzled by the concept of souls, they seem contradictory... Humanist_Activist Jan 2012 #65

No. Iggo Jan 2012 #66

Do we have souls? AlbertCat Jan 2012 #70

Question - Do you accept infinity? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #82

Or do you believe existence itself is finite? AlbertCat Jan 2012 #116

I asked if you thought existence itself was finite, not your existence. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #122

Do you think all other existence ceases when you die? Simple question. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #139

If you want to have a discussion with me I'll be happy to oblige. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #144

No PVnRT Jan 2012 #74

What are souls exactly? Why should we have them? What are the indications that we do/do not? dmallind Jan 2012 #78

If you have one, you'll know what it is, though I doubt you'll be able to adequately describe it. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #83

Looking for the soul in neuroscience is like looking for the stars at noon. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #117

Knowing where something is and seeing it are two different things. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #121

Knowing where something is and seeing it are two different things. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #140

No frogmarch Jan 2012 #80

You may well be correct. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #84

I've been thinking some more about how I experience that "soul-sense" GliderGuider Jan 2012 #95

Very well put. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #106

Endorphins will do that to you. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #118

Interesting you should mention acid. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #120

"Have you ever experienced anything you would call a soul?" AlbertCat Jan 2012 #141

One great disservice (among many) that religion did for humanity GliderGuider Jan 2012 #147

I have seen no evidence of a soul uriel1972 Jan 2012 #113

Do you only believe what can be proven by empirical evidence? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #126

You ask that as if it's a bad thing EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #127

How do you arrive at that concusion from a simple question? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #128

Because I've seen the question too many times to count EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #130

How do you arrive at that concusion from a simple question? AlbertCat Jan 2012 #142

Ah, I see. Different rules for different people Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #143

knowing what is real, like my own eyes, my own ears, AlbertCat Jan 2012 #149

"How am I to take someone who thinks ectoplasm is real seriously?" cleanhippie Jan 2012 #153

When four people witness the same event, I give it some credibility. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #156

When four people witness the same event, I give it some credibility. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #157

We were not disposed to see the event. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #158

Sometimes I wonder if simply random dna can account for all of the differences lindysalsagal Jan 2012 #166

I'm sure lots of truths have been discovered by wondering. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #193

Our brains are information-processing organs, not supernatural radio receivers. n/t backscatter712 Jan 2012 #167

I agree Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #168

Why do you think these concepts have nothing to do with our brain power? darkstar3 Jan 2012 #169

Because that would exclude those with diminished brain power Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #170

Uh huh...Have you ever dealt with a relative darkstar3 Jan 2012 #171

Have I ever dealt with such things? Unfortunately, yes. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #172

That's a treacle-sweet phrase, "his soul is untouched and shines through..." darkstar3 Jan 2012 #173

Some of us see things that others don't. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #176

Some of us see things that aren't there, like ghosts and demons. darkstar3 Jan 2012 #177

Not everything that exists is quantifiable. Feelings and thoughts, ideas, concepts e.g. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #178

True, however that which you can see generally is. darkstar3 Jan 2012 #180

If it was legal would you be interested? GliderGuider Jan 2012 #182

Since you're jumping in here, perhaps you can answer the question darkstar3 Jan 2012 #183

What does "see beyond brain chemistry" mean? GliderGuider Jan 2012 #184

So you don't have an answer. darkstar3 Jan 2012 #185

No, I don't. Not one that will satisfy you. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #186

That's because your frame of reference is made up of much that is made up. darkstar3 Jan 2012 #187

Some of us see things that others don't. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #188

But the ONLY place your sense of self and consciousness resides is your brain. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #190

You realize that's the God of the Gaps argument, right? darkstar3 Jan 2012 #194

More like the soul alongside argument Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #195

Your two arguments take advantage of the same logical fallacy, darkstar3 Jan 2012 #196

Yes. backscatter712 Jan 2012 #174

Many believe as you do. Maybe you're right. Maybe not. I think not. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #179

I think not. AlbertCat Jan 2012 #189

I'm somewhat familiar with Pinker, but haven't read his books. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #191

There may be "Two Solitudes" at work here. GliderGuider Jan 2012 #175

Brilliantly put, my friend. Your insight is inspirational. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #192

As far as I can tell, no. I am willing to be persuaded otherwise if verifiable, repeatable evidence Jean V. Dubois Jan 2012 #181