Reply #19: Not defending parecon, but I don't think you've thought things through [View All]

[Selatius]

Example:

Further, he goes on to say that even without the promise of higher pay, people will still seek higher education and training. Why? Apparently so they can achieve "social esteem and recognition," instead of "material incentives." So...I go to college so that everyone will think I'm smart? For all the money and time I've put into it, that's a crap reason. I go to college, and my friends follow their own training simply to be able to do something they enjoy and to ultimately make more money. Simple as that. This system appeals to none of those desires.

Ultimately make more money? Simple as that? I guess Einstein was in it purely for the material gain, huh? I guess the same went for Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, and all the multitude who came before known and unknown, as if the pursuit of knowledge for the sake of knowledge as opposed to the pursuit of more money was never really a worthy goal or reward however it came.

Frankly, I do agree that "social esteem and recognition" fail to encompass why people do things even though they may not derive any material benefit from it. The pursuit of knowledge, for example, is something people do despite capitalism or socialism (of which Marx only represents one faction out of several within the school) or parecon or even a mixed economic system, and one does not necessarily derive any material enjoyment out of such persuits, especially with folks like Galileo who were persecuted and deprived for challenging the existing order.

Why do they do it? It wasn't for material wants, nor was it for ego-tripping recognition and esteem. It was something else entirely, and I'll tell you I'm not sure I have the answer to that. I've talked to enough people and know enough in the field of science and mathematics, though, to tell you that, for instance, crunching mathematical equations with a mind-numbing amount of variables describing the way a phenomenon of nature works or trying to advance the field of quantum mechanics isn't exactly their idea of "enjoyment" or "fun" as much as it is a "challenge," the itch that needs the be scratched, the impulse, the urge to know and overcome. That, if anything, is neither the want for recognition and esteem nor for material wealth or enjoyment. That, I would say, is an innate force, a "force of nature" if you will, found within man that makes us who we are. It cannot be measured, quantified, or categorized into neat little boxes such as to "make more money."

As far as this particular point goes, both capitalism and parecon seem to fail as far as I can see. Parecon failed to grasp it, while capitalism simply plays to the lowest common denominator of greed as the basis for the advancement of knowledge, not advancement for the sake of advancement, for the sake of knowing and understanding. Why build the better mousetrap? To corner the market, control it so I could make more money?

I honestly wasn't trying to insult or ridicule you, but the world you know is fed to you from the day you are born to the day you will die. It applies to me as well as you and everyone else on this board. Whether you question it is one issue, but how much you question it is another. If you're just going to stand there and throw ridicule and scorn my way, there's no more point in replying to you.

Capitalism as the way? I question that. It will end when we deplete the planet from overconsumption. It will end when my email account is filled with 100,000,000 emails from spammers who are looking to make that legendary extra buck through the control of my personal information to be sold for a fee for the privilege of access to said information to spam me further, and it will end when we have truly mastered the art of making profit off of human misery and suffering through war.