I have a new rule about stores and kids....

[hyphenate]

I was in a department store this evening, and as the minutes wore on, I was getting more pissed off every second that passed.

A woman and her two children, both boys, one at least 6 and the other about 10, were driving me absolutely nuts. The two little fuckers--er, kids, were running around the store like uncorralled bulls, one bouncing a ball continuously down the aisles, and the two of them shouting to each other and their mother, who was yelling right back at them just as loudly!! I was getting to the point where I was going to go to the store manager and tell the store that I was not inclined to be shopping in a store where maniacs like that were free to roam.

My suggestion to an employee: build a cage at the front of the store, with a HUGE sign: This cage is reserved for the wild animals called children when they are not kept close to their parent or guardians, and who disturb the shopping experience with loud yelling, running, and playing with store property.

No wonder I hate kids!!! There are some who are respectable and who are polite and mannerly, but when that fall so short off the mark as these two animals were, it's easy to see why many of us hate to deal with them.

[GOPisEvil]

1. Oh boy!

:popcorn:

[bicentennial_baby]

4. let me join you!

:popcorn:

[crispini]

11. ahhh!

:popcorn:

[BlueJazz]

35. Amen..Actually, I think stores should have trained Tigers with a ...

...large sign outside the store.

"YOUR CHILDREN ARE ALWAYS WELCOME IN OUR ESTABLISHMENT"
HOWEVER
"IF THEY ARE DISRUPTIVE THEY WILL BE EATEN BY TONY THE TIGER"

Have a happy shopping experience!

[hyphenate]

57. That sounds good, too

Perhaps we could teach them to respect animals at the same time they're learning manners. It might help further generations of kids who like to harm animals for nothing better to do! :)

[smirkymonkey]

86. I saw a great sign in a store in Dublin, Ireland...

It said "Unsupervised Children Will Be Rounded Up And Sold As Slaves."

I love Ireland! :evilgrin:

[smbolisnch]

145. *Snort*

:rofl:

[ghostsofgiants]

20. Did you bring any marshmallows?

Good smores weather, methinks.

[crispini]

39. Yum

Pass the chocolate.

[Lubernaut]

2. But children are the future.

[swag]

14. It'll be great when they all start driving SUVs

and hucking their Taco Bell trash into the street.

[Kire]

242. only if you believe it

[SmokingJacket]

3. The cage is a great idea. They basically have that at

my grocery store -- a little room with babysitters. My kids won't go there because they think it's boring, but it does make it easier to shop since all the ruffians are locked away.

Please don't hate *all* kids -- just hate individual kids! (You might like my son: he's only eight but he made a little BUSH MUST GO sign for his window.)

[hyphenate]

8. Yes, I admit

there are good ones out there! My great nephew is one. He's a little hyper, but he will sit and talk with adults, he will have meaningful conversations with them, he will be polite and mannerly, and he will let adults finish talking before he asks a question. On the other hand, my nephew is a mean cuss--at 14, if he disagrees with adults, he flings things at them and holds no respect for adults at all. Of course, his father is a criminal who's been locked up more than he's been out of jail, so I figure he has his father's and mother's genes (my sister, the alky). I suspect Fetal Alcohol Syndrome, personally.

But yes, there are some good kids out there, and just as there are bad kids out there, there are just as many bad parents who indulge these bad kids and let them get away with just about everything. I can't completely put the blame on those who don't know any better, but I sure as hell can be just as pissed off at the parents who should be minding the little bastards!

[WindRavenX]

5. danger!!

:popcorn:

[Maestro]

6. Blame the mom

not the kids.

[progmom]

7. yep

:hi:

[hyphenate]

10. Yup, I do

See #8. :)

[Seabiscuit]

79. My thoughts exactly.

[graywarrior]

9. Get ready for the flaming to start.

I complained one time about a kid at the bookstore I managed who shit his pants, kept digging his hands in his pants and then touching every book in the store while mommy was oblivious to it all.

I was called a child hater.

I never had kids because...well, I don't like them. (I am the child here, forever and ever..so there!)

[Maestro]

13. That is just sick and that mom and dad should be held accountable

for obvious neglect if they are aware of that is going on and do nothing.

[hyphenate]

16. I really don't think that anyone should

be defending these kids and their parents who are just completely fruitloops. They are BAD--simply and irrevocably. The parents are to blame, yes, but you would expect a child to follow the directions of the parent, and if they don't, they shouldn't be allowed into stores where people are shopping! If the parents can't handle them, how the hell can the management of a store handle them? They can't!

Children who are as disruptive as this need to be wrangled, and either leashed to the parent, or left someplace not in public. As already noted, you can't blame the children for everything--the parent--or parents--need to accept that their little bastards are not the apple of everyone elses' eyes, and need to be restrained when they are in areas where people shop, work and eat. I see SO many signs at restaurants that won't allow pets, but I tell ya, if I had the choice of a quiet little pooch or a rambunctious child, the pooch would be invited over the kid.

Let's face it: not all of us love kids. And even if I had any of my own, I would never, ever, allow them to roam freely in a store, NOR would their bad manners ever be allowed to escalate to that point. They would be OUT in the car, with some corporal punishment doled out to them for their bad behavior, and punished as well when we returned home. On the other hand, children who DO handle themselves well in stores, restaurants and other public places should be praised for their good behavior. It's not even a matter of not allowing them free reign--it's about taking into consideration that there are other people around, and many of them are not able to tolerate animals who disturb and disrupt in such a manner.

[progmom]

17. please don't have children.

[hyphenate]

19. At my age

it ain't likely to happen, anyhow. My furkids are about as unruly as I could ever bear, anyhow!

[Skittles]

229. I think she would have made a good mom

no doubt her kids would not be behaving like little f***ing hooligans in stores.

[hfojvt]

98. a little disruption is not such a bad thing

Sometimes it is quite the opposite. I see parents get all upset at kids that most other people think are entertaining or harmless. I also observe that when the parent keeps the kid in line that the kids usually resent the parent for it. Whereas if I told them to "knock it off!!" that they probably would be running to their parents for protection. As a store owner though, I never knew if I would lose a customer. Some parents will explain to the kid "that is why you should be considerate of other people" and other parents would say "some people are just jerks" and get huffy about the implied criticism of their parenting. Also, one must beware of mothers and their cubs, because "it is well known that, if One of the Fiercer Animals is Deprived of Its Young (or if its young is criticized or reprimanded) it becomes as fierce as Two of the Fiercer Animals."

[IntravenousDemilo]

130. Don't I KNOW it about mothers defending their children!

One day on the subway, my reading was heart-stoppingly interrupted by a high-pitched screech right behind me. My whole body clenched, but I didn't say anything. The screecher's mother saw my body language and started to berate me and tell me what an asshole I was, and that if I had children, I'd understand that it's not easy to raise blah blah blah...

"Hey," I said, "when I got my cat she immediately went into heat and started making the most godawful sounds. Now, I was willing to put up with the noise because she was my cat. But I had neighbours upstairs and I was so mortified by the thought that I might be disturbing them, that I had her fixed right away."

"Are you saying I should have my kid fixed?"

"No, but I wouldn't have to have this conversation with you if you'd been."

[fudge stripe cookays]

228. OMG!

Now I know why Terry loves you!

:rofl:
FSC

[fishnfla]

24. The difference being:The OP freely admits to hating children eom

[petronius]

44. Wow...well, I was going to do a bit of reading before bed

but I think this post has put me off books for a while...:puke:

[NNadir]

12. Those were probably my kids.

I tell them to cut it out, but they don't.

Maybe I should shoot them.

[hyphenate]

18. Heh, heh

A tranquilizer dart does wonders! :rofl:

[Momgonepostal]

107. The only reason I know they're not mine is, mine are girls

Mine are about the same age though, and the oldest has ADHD, the youngest, probably also does. I would stop them quickly if they were bouncing balls down the aisles, but I'm sorry, I can't make them stand at attention by my sides the whole time I shop. I've probably pissed off other fellow shoppers, but again, sorry, I can't hire a babysitter every time I need to go to the store, or the post office, or whatever. My youngest says everything in a loud voice, and we've talked about indoor vs. outdoor voices until we're blue in the face, but she still gets loud. "MOM, LOOK AT THOSE BALLOONS!" Thant kind of thing.

I can understand not wanting boisterous children in a quiet restaurant, or the theater, but when we're talking about Target or Sears or something, come on, chill out.

[Fleshdancer]

15. oh yeah? When I'm in a store...

it's my husband that is running around wild while my 5 yr old daughter is calm. Cages are great but do they really have to be for just kids?

[hyphenate]

22. Sure--

I suppose they could build the cage large enough to house a 6' man as well. :D

[Fleshdancer]

23. well in THAT case...

I'm totally in! :D

Also, because bad parents seem to be ruling the stores these days (disclaimer: I'm a parent and I HATE when other parents allow their kids to run around wild) I wouldn't mind getting a little credit for being one of those parents who don't do this.

Can we get some sort of reward system? Maybe a happy face smilie sticker or something as we leave the store?

[hyphenate]

27. I think a reward system

would be a great thing!

I know in a lot of museums and other such places, they do give the kids stars, coloring books and all kinds of great stuff for behaving and for being good kids! I would love to see the good kids get the benefit of the doubt, seeing as these bad kids do tend to give all kids a bad rap.

As yes, as I stated earlier in another post, it's not all kids, and it's not all parents--it's when you have bad kids from bad parents where the trouble starts.

[fishnfla]

21. If this is such a big problem for you

you are really blessed or really very shallow

Good luck with that

:hi:

[hyphenate]

25. Neither

I rarely have enough to go and buy anything except at the dollar stores or my Walmart. I'm pretty piss poor, to tell the truth, but I went into this new store to look around, as I hadn't been in one before. There were only a few people in there when I went in, and it was a very calming experience. Until these assholes spoiled the experience for me.

I'd been in a thrift store earlier, and there were kids in there with their parents, and they were FINE! I expect a little raucous behavior in Walmart and other cheap places, but this experience took the cake. The store employees were oblivious to it, it seemed, and that added to the whole mess.

If this is such a big problem for you, you are really blessed or really very shallow

As I said, neither. I don't go out much. I've been pretty much whammed in for the past three years with a severe clinical depression and other maladies, and have only gotten the motivation and energy recently to go out more. Managing to survive with nothing to live for, for three years, is remarkable enough when you consider how many times I wished it would all end. I cherish the serenity I have for the moment, with no desire to end up back in the house, without any further need to keep going. It is starting to feel good again. And there are some things which jangle my nerves, and seeing parents with such little brats in such a spot can not help but make me want to pummel them or go home and crawl back into bed for a long time all over again.

[fishnfla]

26. Gee ,thats tough

Kids acting like kids ruining your shopping experience.

Who will weep for the poor distressed shopper in aisle 5? The horror, the horror!!!

I've got news for you: the kids hate you too.They are intuitive that way. The only difference is they will grow up and get over it.

[hyphenate]

28. I adore the sarcasm

but I won't support it. :)

[Scout]

37. "Kids acting like kids "

sorry, but the behavior described in the OP goes well beyond "kids being kids"

running around the store like uncorralled bulls, one bouncing a ball continuously down the aisles, and the two of them shouting to each other and their mother, who was yelling right back at them just as loudly
I'd never have acted like that, nor be allowed to get away with it if I had ... and my mom would not have just been hollering across the store at me.

I don't care if it was only WalMart or KMart, that behavior is inappropriate, not to mention rude and obnoxious. One can only hope that their own poor behavior removes them from the gene pool before they reproduce.

[hyphenate]

40. Thank you!

I know it's not easy to be caught criticizing someone else's kids, but several times I heard a rumble in the store, and I thought it was thunder as we had some storms. Instead, I look and it's the younger child barrelling down an aisle, not even looking around to see if someone might have been in front of him.

If we had EVER behaved like that as children, we would have been taken out and beaten by my mom.

[LissaM]

100. agreed.

Since when did it be okay for not only the kids to misbehave so much, but the mother as well?? Look, we all understand that every once and a while a toddler gets cranky and cries in the grocery store while the frustrated mom writes a check. Big deal, toddlers get tired and cranky. The occasional ass might glare at the mother but the majority is understanding.

But when you're 6 and 10, you should know enough to at least treat your mother with respect, and that means not screaming and getting away with crap all the time. I have cousins that age that know very well to stay by their parents, and if they see something to ask for it quietly, not scream and run around like brats. Then again, their mom isn't screaming at them from across the store and practically encouraging that kind of bratty behavior herself.

[hyphenate]

120. Agreed! eom

[JackDragna]

It's a sign of the times.

As people become more inward, self-obsessed and asocial, they lose the ability to deal with real people, including their children. Sure, they yell, but they put no effort into real solutions. They yell and yell, then are surprised when their little angel is Satan with pimples. "Oh, but there's no way my Johnny could have punched out that other kid at school!"

"Yes, he did, ma'am. Maybe he wouldn't be a raging asshole and feel he can do anything if you or your husband might have, say, occasionally disciplined the child when he did something bad."

Here's a hint, America: if your kid flips you off when you tell him it was a bad thing to light the cat on fire and throw it at a police officer, it may be time to get serious about discipline.

[hyphenate]

32. You are probably correct.

My best friend works at a school as an evaluation coordinator, handling kids with behavior problems, such as those who love to pull knives on teachers, etc. She has seen this kind of behavior escalate, and has noticed that the parents often don't really give a shit. It shows.

[IntravenousDemilo]

131. Those parents who don't really give a shit

if little Johnny or Janie pulls a knife on teacher, should be forcec to share a jail cell with their kid for a few months. That would straighten EVERYBODY out.

[hyphenate]

133. I agree

But when the parents are often completely inappropriate as parents, with drug, alcohol or other substance abuse problems of their own, the social system breaks down, and a situation goes nowhere. There needs to be some solution which takes this into effect, and I know of none.

[IntravenousDemilo]

136. Well, if they have substance abuse problems of their own,

then the months in prison should help them dry out. Imagine going cold turkey locked in a cell with your teenager.

[SoCalDem]

29. The base commisary at Ft. Clayton HAD a floor to ceiling "playpen"

all children under 12 HAD to be "checked in"..Moms actually loved it.. QWhen they were done shopping, and their groceries were loaded in their cars, the claim ticket was turned in, and the kids delivered to the car :)

[hyphenate]

31. Sounds good to me! eom

[graywarrior]

30. I don't hate kids, really. I hate my reaction to kids.

It's always about me....

[hyphenate]

33. I think it's more my hatred of bad parenting

but when you're looking at a "devil" child who doesn't give a fuck about the adults around him/her, it's difficult to put blame solely on the parent. There is a problem with the child as well at some point or another.

[graywarrior]

34. Seems to me a lot of parents are terrified of their kids.

I know if I gave birth to someone who had my DNA and chracter traits, I'd be terrified.

[BikeWriter]

36. One's Children and pets should never be allowed to impose!

It is our choice to have them and our responsibility to train and control them. Period.

[jobycom]

38. Next time don't shop at Walmart!

;-)

[hyphenate]

41. Oh, it wasn't at Walmart

I expect that kind of behavior at Walmart. It was a clothing store, which I assume is fairly new, called "Bob's Stores." The problem is that it's an upscale store in terms of prices. The average pair of pants was around $50, and one pair of shoes I saw that I liked was almost $100. I know for some people that isn't "upscale" but for me, it certainly was.

[Kathleen04]

42. I work at a dept store

We sell candy bars at our registers and one day this woman's crazy kids decided to help themselves without paying and their mother did absolutely nothing. Eventually this woman from security came over and told them they'd have to pay for the candy. These kids were old enough to know better...and the adults there should have exercised some control.

[fleabert]

43. why do you hate America?

but really, amen! I adore kids, when they aren't holy terrors! (and that usually means I really hate their parents, the kids don't know any better!)

[Not_Giving_Up]

45. As the mother of an ADHD Aspie kid, I will say this

My son doesn't always behave in stores, particularly if they are crowded. He doesn't do well in crowds...the noise gets to him. Knowing this, I try to shop when I can leave the kids with my husband, or while they are at school. However, when I'm working, the only time I have to shop is in the evenings. My husband has recently started working out of town off an on, in the past he has tended to work nights. So, sometimes I have to take an unhappy kid to the store.

Please believe me when I say that unless I'm going for something needed without a doubt (like dinner for that night, or toilet paper), I will try to avoid taking him if he's having a bad day. Sometimes, bad day or not, we're down to the last roll of toilet paper, and there's just no choice.

I try to remain calm in the store if he's going bonkers...this helps him to calm down. If I get all worked up, he will get worked up worse.

I realize that some people have no idea how to deal with their children and do nothing about the way they act in public. However, sometimes it's just a really bad day for the kid, which makes it a really bad day for them mom. Don't judge based on one incident.

[hyphenate]

53. There is a difference between a child

who can't help it, and two children and a mother ALL yelling and hollering in a fairly quiet store. In almost all my experience in the past, the mother did not contribute to the raised decibel level, and I have never seen a more apathetic set of store employees. Most stores I know also have signs that "suggest" parents keep the children close by, partially for reasons I've gone over here, and also for security reasons--i.e., Code Adam or other abduction possibilities.

In this particular case, I suspect if this boy and his brother were in some way kidnapped, it would be the "Ransom of Red Chief" all over again!

[Pithlet]

67. Thank you

That's what bothers me, too. It does seem in the OP's case the children were behaving badly. But threads like this bother me because I have a child with similar issues, and I'm pretty much chained to my home unless I really have to go out because I'm so tired of the dirty looks, heavy sighs and comments about my bad parenting when he loses control. Because there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with him, it is assumes he's just a bad kid and I'm a lazy mother. I'm so tired of it. I think people are way too quick to judge others when they know nothing of the situation. I know there are bad parents and that is often why kids go nuts. But, I think people should stop the instant judgment of others based on once incident, and that doesn't just pertain to kids. I've made the conscious effort to stop, and it really does make moving among fellow humans out in the world a lot easier. When your whole day isn't ruined because someone else's existence is a personal affront, life is much easier.

[hyphenate]

96. I can understand the difference

between a tired child, a child with special needs, and someone who is just a brat. Trust me--this younger child was a brat. And even if he wasn't, there was absolutely NO need on the part of the mother to contribute to the noise level! That's what stands out to me--the mother was yelling just as loudly, and was not telling her children to stop their rather noxious behavior.

I admit that sometimes I might over-react, but I don't have the patience of Job, and I would rather be away from children most of the time. I am not a saint, and I only have the mother instinct for the 4 legged and furry kind of kids. And perhaps lacking that special gene that some people feel they need to raise children, well I must have been patting a cat or dog when those were given out. But there are times and places where rambunctious kids should not be allowed to roam, run, holler or in general disrupt places where there are people who aren't mentally or psychologically equipt to handle them. We should encourage our children to be creative, to be able to fulfill their dreams, but they should also know that there is a time and place for politeness and good behavior as well.

And I say this: yes, when we were children, while some might consider us to be "Stepford" clones, truth is, we were respectful of adults. If nothing else, we never were insubordinate to grown-ups, and were polite in mixed company. I had plenty of freedom to be able to do just about anything I wanted, and yet misbehaving wasn't one of the things I did. It isn't too much to ask of any child to understand that while adults aren't always going to be right, they are older, and the respect for someone older than yourself should simply be an instinct. If it isn't, I don't think I can have much respect for any parent that allows a child to talk back to an adult, regardless of the circumstances.

[Pithlet]

101. I don't think you can

Because I wouldn't expect you to. I don't expect you to be able to diagnose on the spot every single child. No one can. I don't begrudge you your response to those kids, because from your description they sound like they were behaving very badly.

My stepford comments weren't meant for you, but for a certain vocal group at DU who love to slam parents and kids and treat us as though our very existence in the public sphere is an inconsiderate affront to them, one of whom jumped at the chance to respond very quickly, as usual. No one understands more than I how irritating kids can be, and how clueless some parents can be. I do understand how annoying they can be. But, it's one thing to rant about irritating behavior of other people, like cell phones or aisle blocking grocery carts. Those are examples of inconsiderate behavior by selfish people who don't give a crap about anyone else. But, when I go out in public, I'm not being rude or inconsiderate. And I can't just turn off my kid. They can't be controlled as if they're little machines. Even the best behaved, well brought up kid is going to have bad days.

I didn't have kids to piss those people off. I didn't have them so they could look down their noses at me and judge my parenting skills based on two minutes of observation. I certainly didn't have a child who will very likely never have a normal life and function the way they can just to ruin their day. I don't expect empathy. But, I can mock their self centered everything is about them entitlement attitude. Because that is all it is. These same people, if they were to see me in public where I deigned to be in their presence, would love to come back here to DU and rant about what a lowlife scum I and my kids are. There is a difference between the "I saw the worst behaved kids" rant and the "Parents these days are scum who can't control their kids" rant.

[hyphenate]

118. It's a rare thing for me to complain about kids

for the most part. I don't care for them, and never wanted any of my own, so except for my nieces, nephews, my best friend's extended family members, and the occasional one or more children I see in public, I will say my experience is nil. However, having said that, I've spent enough time with the above mentioned children to appreciate spontaneity, creativity and happiness which is in each child. Looking at something through a child's eyes is special, and I enjoy those moments. However, I prefer them to at least be respectful of adults, regardless of whose children they are, and to be taught enough manners to be properly behaved in situations that warrant it.

Is this too much to ask? These wild children will grow into even wilder adults. They won't have the basics of formality, and they will never have the attitude of respect toward people that are older than them. That isn't too much to ask for!

I was at a restaurant recently, and was standing in the waiting room to go in when my name was called. Two elderly women--they had to be in their 70s at the least--came in, and while there were several children in their early teens sitting on the couches in the waiting area, not ONE of them got up to give those women a seat. In fact, there were several GROWN MEN who wouldn't get up to give the women their seats. Perhaps I'm old fashioned on this topic, but when did it become acceptable to disrespect an older person in this way? When we were kids, regardless of how tired, sore or old we were, it was never acceptable to let an elderly person stand while we were sitting.

Regardless of any other factor, one thing also comes to mind: what if one of these children were abducted from the store? It wouldn't take more than 5 minutes for the parents to blame the store! It's pretty evident to me, at least, that the parents are willing to blame others for situations, but aren't willing to blame themselves for the behavior of the children in the first place!

[Pithlet]

127. It's not too much to ask

One of the top priorities of parenting is raising civilized, caring, compassionate human beings. I'm with you there. I also agree that parents who leave young children unsupervised are just plain irresponsible. And it is definitely not too much to ask people to be considerate of others.

Really, my whole beef in this thread is with people who don't understand that children aren't fully controllable, and always blame the parents and insist we should basically be banished from public life to save them a few moments of irritation. Really. I've been childfree most of my life, and there have always been times when unruly children have bugged me. But I didn't extend that to hatred of all kids and all parents, and insist that I be able to conduct myself in public life completely free of an irritation that a whole group of people usually can't even help. It is an impossible thing to ask me to never be an annoyance in public with my children because I simply cannot promise that, and I'm a damn good parent. I hate being told otherwise. And I don't think that was your message, but that of quite a few people in this thread.

[fudge stripe cookays]

161. We're not asking you to banish yourself from public life...

for fuck's sakes.

But if your child is misbehaving in a public environment, the people around you (with children or without) deserve the courtesy of taking your child outside to discipline them and let them calm down.

FSC

[Pithlet]

180. You haven't

But that is exactly what some have said here.

And I have never argued that second point. Never.

[Patiod]

78. I've had to deal with a troubled child

We took care of a little girl who had never been disciplined - her mother was sick most of the child's life, didn't want the child to "remember any bad things" and when the mother died, the 6-year old did NOT react well to dicipline. Almost child abuse, when you look at the results.

She would lay down on the floor in the supermarket and scream. That's one thing for a 2-year old, another for a 7-year-old. As I expect you've had to do, I had to learn to harden myself against people's stares, get the essentials, and get out as quickly as possible. Maybe as a result of that experience, I can usually tell when a single child is troubled (or extra sleepy, cranky, out-of-sorts) vs. lazy parents who threaten but won't follow through and DO anything.

It drives me insane when parents keep threatening children verbally ("Max! Nate! Stop screaming now or we're leaving! And no McDonald's! I'm serious!) but the parents continue shopping, make no eye contact with the kids, no move to leave, and the kids just completely ignore them.

One time I almost applauded when I heard a mom tell a kid "touch that candy again and we're leaving immediately", and when the kid grabbed more candy, the mother hauled him out by the arm right then and there.

[leftofthedial]

46. you hate kids?

I couldn't tell.

[cleofus1]

47. i actually encourage my kids

to annoy people in public...i kinda get a kick out of it...sort of like when dennis the menace would aggravate mr wilson...

i've had a few people say things to me about my kids...but i just tell them to shut the fuck up...i think they want to hit me...but no one ever has...

am i part of the problem? :spank:

[cleofus1]

48. and just a suggestion...

when you see a child with the audacity to actually be bouncing a ball...you should take off running down the aisle yelling...i'm open! i'm open!...this usually works in getting the kid to relinquish the ball...

the last thing we want is for kids to get loud and annoy the rest of us...
look here's some right now....call the police!

[Beaverhausen]

121. um - there is a difference between a store and an amusement park

I'm sure you know that, right?

[cleofus1]

258. no i'm a moran

please take the time to explain it to me....

[nonconformist]

49. I agree! Damn kids being kids, we should CAGE THEM! nt

[cleofus1]

50. i we could just learn to control them

what a wonderful world it would be...

[nonconformist]

51. Maybe we should invest in tasers

wouldn't want my little demons annoying people! Especially people who are annoyed by their mere presence!

:sarcasm:

[cleofus1]

52. we should concentrate on personal responsibility...

and not depend on others to taser our little monsters...there are electro collars on the market...

of course the little devious ones might find a way to circumvent the apparatus...you can see the evil genius in their eyes!

[hyphenate]

55. Naw

Tranquilizer darts should suffice. :)

[hyphenate]

54. Damned straight!

Scare them straight at the tender age of 6 or 7! They'll never want to wander far from mother's purse strings again!

There is a point where spontaneity and exhuberance turns into aggravation and intolerance. The kids I saw last night, went over that line. :)

[cleofus1]

56. yes...draw the line....

intolerable children should be shown the line....

[JimmyJazz]

58. I love the smell of a flamewar in the morning!

[Catchawave]

59. "Unattended Children Will Be Sold "

That was a sign in a small retail shop I once worked at :rofl:

[verdalaven]

61. hey, you wouldn't happen to be from MI, eh?

LOL!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

66. THAT is hilarious!!

:rofl:

[verdalaven]

60. The second hand store in our town

has the following sign behind the counter -

All Unattended Children will be Sold as Slaves

:)

A retired teacher owns and operates the place.

[cleofus1]

62. well

those are witty signs...but i personally don't see the humor...it doesn't make me angry...i just don't think they're funny...i guess i just have to accept that some people just don't like kids...just for the record...after being on this earth for near 50 years and living in many different parts of the world...i've never seen a kid going around wiping feces all over a retail store...or any of the other examples of extreme behavior listed here...most little kids have good hearts and will react positively when approached in that manner...
so for my part i give kids the benefit of the doubt...and if they want to get a little wild...more power to them...

[hyphenate]

63. We're about the same age, then

as my next birthday, 7 months away, will put me at the 50 mark.

I have nephews, nieces and a great nephew. I helped to raise my oldest niece, who is now 27, because her mother, my sister, the alky, couldn't be bothered with her growing up. Between my mom and I devoting time to her and helping her with the basic essentials, she grew up well, if a bit outspoken. She would ALWAYS hold our hand when we took her places. She was always polite, and most of the time, quiet. The only problem we had with her is that she was very much like her mother in her teen years, getting pregnant when she was 17. Unlike her own mother, she broke the cycle of substance abuse, and doesn't drink or smoke, or do drugs. She is currently single, giving up her marriage to CJ's father because he was abusive. She is currently engaged to a man who is a fireman and EMT. She can still be outspoken and can be quick to temper, but she also makes sure CJ is, at the very least, well behaved.

It's not like I hate ALL children. I don't. Just last night, after my experience with the brats at the department store, I was in having ice cream and exchanging waves and smiles with a little 2-3 year old in another booth with her parents. She was adorable. I didn't mind talking to and playing with children who are relatively restrained, but when all hell breaks loose and children become uncontrollable, there is a limit to my endurance.

[cleofus1]

64. sorry

you do sound like a curmudgeon...but that does not mean i don't like you...:P

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

65. Don't blame the kids.

At 10 and 6, you really think it's THEIR fault they're little bastards?

No, blame the shitty parents that let them get away with behavior like that.

[SarahB]

68. Blah, blah, blah!

:nopity:

[fudge stripe cookays]

69. I love you hyphenate.

We can be curmudgeons together.

I am not a kid person. Never have been; never will be.

FSC

[cleofus1]

72. better a curmudgeon

than a mysoginist...

[hyphenate]

92. Thanks

I don't mind being considered a curmudgeon. One of the greatest curmudgeons was Cleveland Amory, a very wise, very kind man who started the animal charity, Fund for Animals. He was also one of the original TV Guide critics for many years. He adopted a cat in his later years, and wrote several books about him and the cat, and if you're lucky, you can still get an old copy of the first one, "The Cat and the Curmudgeon." Wonderful writer. And full of some deep seated humor that is both wry and forgiving at the same time.

[fudge stripe cookays]

153. I love Cleveland Amory...

and that danged cat of his. Awesome books. :hi: Great minds think alike.

FSC

[bertha katzenengel]

251. but - but - but -

we call our cats our "kids" - ???? :cry: love me, love my cats, Cookays, that's the rule . . .

[hyphenate]

253. Yes

and my furkits don't get to go out because I can't predict that they won't hiss and spit at someone in a store because I've never been able to teach them proper manners!

[fudge stripe cookays]

255. Except for the hairballs,

I'd rather have a cat than a kid ANY day! Besides, I won't have to pay college tuition!

:D
FSC

[StopTheMorans]

70. thank you SOOOOOOOO much!

:popcorn:

[matcom]

71. YAY!!! THIS MADE MY FRIDAY!!

:bounce:

:popcorn:

:bounce:

:popcorn:

:bounce:

:popcorn:

:bounce:

:popcorn:

:bounce:

:popcorn:

[hyphenate]

94. You're welcome.

:D

[BigMcLargehuge]

73. Holy shit does time fly...

it's already the 16th? Time for the monthly non-parents angrily dispensing child rearing/etiquette advice in the lounge?

this should be fun...

[Pithlet]

75. Of course

They were all perfectly behaved little Stepford automatons when THEY were kids, because their own perfect mothers would never have allowed them to get away with anything.

[bleedingheart]

77. hahahah!

[rene moon]

88. Oh, get over it

The kids were bad and that's that. Nobody should be running in a store, screaming and yelling like that, EVER!!

What happen to common courtsey? Has it all gone away in favor of "the children"?

SHEESH!!!

[Pithlet]

89. I'm not the one ranting

I don't see what I have to get over.

[hyphenate]

93. Thank you!

:)

[Pithlet]

97. Just to be clear

I didn't have a problem with your post. As I said in another post in this thread, it sounds like they were really badly behaved.

[hyphenate]

99. My point exactly

Again, thanks. I expect some haranguing from some of the parents, because all parents get defensive about their child's behavior, but it doesn't always means it's right to let kids simply go bonkers in public. For most it shows a lack of courtesy and some simple sense of manners.

[Pithlet]

103. Sometimes it does.

I'm not sure if it's as often as those with your perspective think. I could guarantee you that 99% of the time when you see those incidents, the parents want a hole to open up underneath them. Even if they may not appear to be so. I certainly don't give the eye rollers and comment makers the satisfaction of letting them know I feel that way. Most parents are doing the best they can, and despite that, the tired, overstimulated, hungry child STILL gets the best of them. There are the clueless idiots, to be sure, and it does sound like that's what you were dealing with.

I don't expect everyone to love kids, or to not be irritated when those things happen. Just try to understand the other side of the fence. That's all.

ETA: The point I made upthread? Exhibit A: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=4012315&mesg_id=4016623

[LaraMN]

74. There's a much simpler solution.

I only shop at the grocery store with kids in tow. I always make sure to pick up a gallon of milk as soon as we get there. If they mess around, I flog them with it and shove them underneath the cart.

[bleedingheart]

76. Same goes for adults...

The young yuppies with a cell phone implant on their head who bang into you and walk down the middle of the aisle because they can't seem to talk and walk at the same time.

The snippy yuppy who is outrageously aggravated because the older lady in the front of the line is writing a check!!! egads...and oh my it might take the poor old lady awhile because her poor crippled hands can't write that fast and the snippy yuppy is making her even feel worse that she is old and crippled.

My favorites are the healthy adults who park in the fire lane because in spite of the fact they have a "club membership" they can't f*cking park their f*cking car in the lot and walk. So I always make sure to tell them I am asking the manager to call the police!

[alarimer]

80. I couldn't stand that either

My problem is that I can't stand anyone that is LOUD. I swear I cringe whenever anyone yells- it just hurts my ears or something. For some reason the voices of children get on my nerves as do the way some women laugh- really loud, screeching laughter is what I am talking about. I seem to be especially sensitive to that. Maybe something wrong with my ears. I have to leave places where there is a lot of that kind of noise. Disruptive kids are just annoying but as someone pointed out it is really the parent's fault.

[cleofus1]

81. it's not the kid's fault or the parent's fault

i think it's the fault of the anal retentive overly sensitive dorks...who shouldn't be out in public...just have your food delivered and shop over the internet...

[alarimer]

82. Why can't people control their fucking kids?

simple fucking question.

[Pithlet]

83. Because kids aren't fucking robots

They don't have little buttons on their backs. They are human beings who haven't fully developed physically or emotionally, and despite the best efforts of their human parents, sometimes they lose control. If they have imperfections that human beings are sometimes prone to, then it's even worse.

But, I wish people did have buttons I'd shut off the "I'm going to act like an ass and give dirty looks and make stupid judgmental comments" button freely. Or the "I think the world revolves around me" button.

I don't need for everyone to like kids, and I'll say that off the bat since that will be thrown at me. Some of my favorite people in the world aren't kid people, to put it lightly. But they don't walk around thinking the world has to revolve around them, either.

[cleofus1]

84. anger

i don't control my kids...i raise them...and i really don't care if they annoy people...

they are just kids...not like adults who should know better than to use anger and profanity...

[Jokerman]

106. So you don't care if kids annoy people...

But you'll make a number of posts complaining about people who are annoyed by kids. If you don't care, why the interest in this thread?

[Pithlet]

109. That made no sense

Kids who annoy people, and people who are annoyed by kids are two different things. Why would anyone have to be annoyed by or care about both. It's possible to not care if kids annoy people, but be irritated by people who whine about kids. It's possible to be annoyed by kids and not care about those it bothers.

In fact, it's quite possible to take part in a thread you really don't care about. Most of my participation here in the lounge is about crap I really don't care about. But, I love participating here.

[Jokerman]

110. Let me see if I have this straight:

It's OK for kids to be annoying but it's not OK for adults to be annoyed by kids? Or is it OK to be annoyed just as long as we keep it to ourselves?

I guess breeders just don't like hearing from anyone who doesn't think everything a kid does is cute.

[Pithlet]

111. No

That isn't what I said at all. I guess selfish childfreers don't have reading comprehension skills.

[Jokerman]

113. What gives you the right to call me selfish?

And insult my comprehension skills?

The truly self centered are those who think it's OK to let their children impose on others.

[Pithlet]

114. What gave you the right to call me a breeder.

You are the one that drug this little encounter to the bottom of the barrel. I only returned in kind.

[Jokerman]

115. It's simply a term for people who have children.

No offense intended.

It did allow you to change the subject though, didn't it?

[Pithlet]

116. I don't buy it.

It is an offensive term. You know that.

I changed the subject? You were the one who pretended you didn't understand what I wrote and interjected insults. I guess I should be ashamed of myself for rising to your bait, though. I'm usually better than that. I've been at DU too long, there's no excuse.

[Jokerman]

117. Buy it or not, it's the truth.

I've heard and used the term for years and this is the first time I've ever had anyone take offense.

However I find the automatic link between child free and selfish to be quite offensive.

[Pithlet]

119. I don't think people who are childfree are selfish

But, see, there aren't really any derogatory insults specifically for people without children, are there? I was only mirroring your obvious contempt for people with kids, not stating that is how I actually feel.

If you honestly didn't realize it was a deragoatory term, then fine. I just found it hard to believe simply because it is used in such a nasty way all the time.

[Jokerman]

122. I guess I've learned something today:

Your reaction prompted me to look up "breeder" at encarta.com:

4. offensive term: an offensive term for somebody who is heterosexual ( slang insult )

So, as a heterosexual, I guess I've been using a term that's supposed to be offensive to me. Language is a funny thing.

I honestly didn't mean it to be offensive and I apologize for not knowing how the term can be perceived.

I can't say I'll never use it again, I'll just be more careful about where.

[Pithlet]

125. It has also been adopted

by some childfree people to insult people with kids. I've never really been insulted by the term as it applied to me as a heterosexual, as I just really don't suffer all that much because of that aspect of who I am.

Apology accepted, and I didn't mean to imply you were selfish.

[Book Lover]

124. self-delete

I didn't read your follow up post, for which I apologize.

[fudge stripe cookays]

85. I think that's my main problem.

I mean, when there's a good song on, get outta the way; I WILL turn it up.

But I hate loud noises, and that includes screaming and crying.

No, I wasn't perfect as a child. I never said I was. But we're not having kids for a reason, and I don't like dealing with them when I'm out anymore than I would if they were mine.



FSC

[pdx_prog]

87. Our world is based on our perceptions

what you percieve as one thing may, be in fact something completely different. If they came up to you and stuck a knife in your thigh I could understand your complaining. Maybe you should lay off of the coffee or something.

The old story by Steven Covey comes to mind......the man and his two kids were on the commuter train.....the kids were running loose, and acting nuts. Steven said he confronted the man and asked him what was wrong.....why couldn't he control his kids?

The man said yeah, we just came back from the hospital where my wife died and I just don't know what we are going to do now. I haven't told my kids, and I just don't know what to say.

[Lex]

91. I bet if he told the kids, that would quiet them down! nt

[rene moon]

104. oh please

that's not the case and you know.

Stop makes excuses for bad behavior!

[Lilyhoney]

90. If the parents are not around,

I will not hesitate to tell children to behave. It works. I have done it at department stores, airports, libraries and grocery stores.

[Midlodemocrat]

95. My solution....

pepper spray. Works every time.

[Dukkha]

102. I don't hate Kids. I LOATHE their parents!

The majority of breeders out there simply aren't qualified to raise kids. For the most part they're too lazy & self absorbed to pay any real attention to them and provide proper discipline.

[edbermac]

105. Get a Taser Gun...

The perfect gift for the upcoming holiday season...:evilgrin:

[tjwmason]

108. It is quite ridiculous.

The problem is that when children misbehave it tends to create noise (in large quantities), which necessarily imposes on other people. Common curtesy demands that we do not impose ourselves on others, and this applies to parents and their children as much as anybody else - if the child is going to be like that, then they should not be in public spaces where they are going to irritate others - it's just plain bad manners.

It's like those who drive around playing music with a deep booming bass at loud volume; again an imposition is being made on others.

You have my deepest sympathies for the original experience, and for the ranting yahoos who seem to think that we should all drop to the lowest common denominator of behaviour as soon as a child appears on the scene.

[Pithlet]

112. So we're banned from the public sphere?

This is the crap that pisses me off. It isn't the people who are annoyed by noisy kids. It's the people who think we shouldn't deign to be in their presence, and should be relegated to our homes never to see the light of day. Blasting music is an intentional act. Merely existing and seeing the light of day is not. I have to go to the store. I have to eat. I have to shop. Too bad for you.

Sorry. I'm a person and so are my kids, and that means that occasionally we have to go out in public. I'm not going to shut ourselves away just to make your existence in the public sphere quieter. It isn't all about you.

[hyphenate]

132. As you know

That wasn't my original intent, it was to let off some steam at a parent and her kids who were showing very inappropriate behavior in a store. It's obvious there is a difference between a mother who is ready to shrink herself into a small spot as her rambunction kids embarrass the hell out of her in a public place, and one who is just adding to the entire spectacle of annoying behavior.

I don't want to flame any parents, and I intended to express my disbelief at this episode, not to preach to parents as a non-parent. I am child-free, and yes, sometimes I think I have it better than parents in the respect that I can pretty much do what I want, when I want, where I want. And I know some of the parents here would shake their heads and remember how much better their lives are as the result of their having children.

But how boring it would all be if we were all the same, and if we all had the same sensibilities and approach to life! Rather than be completely smug about our own lives, perhaps we need to celebrate the diversity we all have. It's one of the things that we, as liberals, need to embrace. We're supposed to be open-minded about the opinions, creeds, beliefs, and lifestyles of others, and for the most part, we succeed. Someone not on the board one day asked me how could we have so much discussion if we were all in agreement on every thing, and I told them that we were FAR from being in agreement on everything!

And while it is one of our strengths as a party, it's also the source of a lot of divisive behavior. When we stop and think about it, we can find the ability to agree to disagree. But oftentimes, our initial reaction is not so agreeable. It's part of being human. We think we have it better than others, and will not always see that the others have the same exact belief, that they have it better than we do.

My best friend chuckled one day at one of the family functions we were both at. She saw me talking with one of her great nieces (I think it was Jessica, who is about 6 or 7) and she laughed. She said, "I thought you hated kids. Boy for someone who hates kids, you're having a lot of fun with them!"

Yeah, well, perhaps I overstate my "hatred" of kids. Sometimes I think it's more of a "I don't mind them around once in awhile, but I'm happy to give them back at the end of the day" attitude. But that's only when the children are not little bastards whose only goal in life is to drive me and other adults insane!

That's pretty much all I ask at the end of the day--teach your kids to respect their elders, regardless of how wrong they perceive them to be. Teach them to behave and show some manners. And yes, the children aren't to blame 100%--at least 50% of the blame needs to be put on the parents, and if the parents can't handle their own kids in a public setting, perhaps it's time for the parents to admit that they can't control them and need some help.

[Pithlet]

138. I realize that

But it is the argument of many in this thread. That misbehaving children are always the fault of the parents. That children only need to be controlled, as if that were possible. And if some child is whining and crying, it is because the parents are inconsiderate, and shouldn't have shown up to bother everyone else.

That theme runs heavily through this thread, even if you did not intend that. The very posts that you are saying Thank You to, which seems to imply that you agree. These child flame wars happen precisely because a bunch of people have no clue about kids and how they work. They have no clue about parenting. When things go awry, it is because the idiot parent didn't follow some kind of magical forumula that many childfree people seem to think they're privy to. See Telly Savales's post. He/she put it better than I've been able to.

Ugh, spell check sometimes hinders more than it helps.

[friesianrider]

149. "bunch of people have no clue about kids and how they work"

With all due respect, that is total BS.

MANY parents manage to get their kids to be respectful in public places without whips and chains or oppression. It's called parenting.

[Pithlet]

168. Sorry

Plenty of parents manage to get their kids to behave much of the time. That is true. I'm not saying there is no such thing as effective parenting. But it is not fool proof. Because kids are people, people that have not lived in the world long enough to mature and behave without those parenting skills, and manage to do what they will despite them.

[friesianrider]

148. No, but if you can't keep your kids...

at least REASONABLY respectful, then leave them at home. No one is suggesting that every place be "kid-free" but just because a parent learns to tolerate their kids screaming at a high decibel doesn't mean that *I* should be subjected to it.

Bring your kids everywhere if you'd like, but please keep them reasonably respectful of others.

[fudge stripe cookays]

164. Oh for God's sake.

Get off the cross. We need the wood.

:eyes:
FSC

[Pithlet]

216. That was nice

how sweet of you, FSC.

[fudge stripe cookays]

219. I get that a lot. n/t

[Pithlet]

220. I'm sure you do.

You're normally very nice here on DU.

[fudge stripe cookays]

227. Normally...

I'm not arguing about something with someone so argumentative towards people who just want NOT to have to listen to kids screaming and misbehaving.

I'm glad you value your motherhood. Just be respectful of us who have chosen the other path by not making excuses for misbehaving kids.

FSC

[Pithlet]

231. FSC

I have nothing against you or anyone just because they don't like screaming misbehaving kids. People are jumping on me and accusing me of that, and I just don't think it's warranted. I haven't been argumenatitve with anyone just because they don't want to hear screaming kids. Some of the stuff in this thread is me being frustrated because I'm not being understood, or people are reading things into my statements that just aren't there.

For some peopl here, it is obvious the only way I can be considerate is to never take my kids in public. Because screaming and misbehaving sometimes happens despite everything. And you're going to hear that screaming and crying while I'm leaving. There is nothing I can do about that. My oldest son may be autistic. When I see the comments about bratty kids, I see the faces, and the comments and the roll eyes I get everywhere by people who just want to judge me. It is not obvious to anyone who doesn't know him that somehting is wrong. It's assumed I'm a bad parent. It's very hard for me to go anywhere, and I'm just trying to make it through life like anyone else. I'm not on this earth to annoy people like you, I promise.

It's hurtful to read comments here at DU a lot because I know that while they aren't talking about me personally, they're talking about me generally. Really, my whole point is most parents aren't crappy, inconsiderate people. There are just crappy, inconsiderate people who happen to have kids, but they were crappy before that. People like to dump their frustrations on us here at DU if we aren't in absolute agreement that kids are bratty and parents are selfish. Life sucks, and peole can be annoying. Going out among fellow humans can be a trial. But there's nothing wrong with at least trying to understand and not immediately judge.

[fudge stripe cookays]

254. Exactly.

Really, my whole point is most parents aren't crappy, inconsiderate people. There are just crappy, inconsiderate people who happen to have kids, but they were crappy before that.

Yes, that is your point, and you have made it. People are inconsiderate. These parents obviously were.

But for some reason, you have to keep pointing out on these threads that it is not always the parents' fault, when in this particular case, it is.

Stop taking everything so personally when the example was a general one. THAT is my issue.

[tjwmason]

247. I never claimed that it's all about me, this is quite the opposite

The public sphere is a shared space, and therefore all within it deserve the same respect and consideration. I will always refrain from goodness knows how many obnoxious habits in public, and so should other people - and children most definitely are part of that.

No one person has the right to impose themself on other people.

[hyphenate]

128. Thank you!

:)

[skygazer]

123. Okay, I have to address something you said partway through this thread

"The store employees were oblivious to it, it seemed, and that added to the whole mess."

I'm not sure what you expected the store employees to do about it. I'll tell you honestly, I work retail and I'm not paid remotely enough to even think of trying to discipline someone else's kids or to tell an oblivious parent that they need to better supervise them. People don't take too kindly to that. Retail workers are paid to work retail, not babysit.

[hyphenate]

135. Oh, I agree

and I will clarify my remark. I know most employers don't want any interference with potential customers. They don't want to say anything that will make the parent go off in a huff and never come back. But sometimes, it's the other customers who complain to the customer service rep and ask them to do something. In many stores, there is already a poster up someplace telling adults to keep children with them, and that the store isn't responsible for unattended children. It's more for legal reasons of course, but it is also in place to give the store the authority to speak to a parent who is not minding their child.

My sister in law mentioned that this one woman and her children were banned from shopping in the immediate area grocery stores because her children were disgusting when they were in the store, climbing on the deli counter, for one, and being obnoxious. The store finally told the woman not to bring her kids in anymore, because more than one customer told the managers that they didn't think the behavior was appropriate.

In essence, I would have thought that the store manager should have made a comment to that woman, because allowing her children to push the edge of the envelope was only going to contribute to other children going one step further in bad behavior. The regular employees would not have that power to do anything about it, I realize that. But making some sort of report to management would have covered their asses in case something else had happened.

[-..__...]

126. I usually give the parent a dirty look.

Sometimes that's enough and they apologize.

On a few occasions when that didn't work or I got a dirty look in return, i've said to them "hey lady, do you mind controling your kids"?

It doesn't happen that often.

Last time it happened was a few years ago. I was in an ATM booth that had two machines. Mom had her 6 year old with her and she was asking the kid which machine should she use. The kid bounched back and forth from machine to machine saying "this one", "no this one". After repeating that about 4-5 times I finally said "hey lady, do you mind"? "Some of us have other things to do and don't have time for this".

The look she gave me was pricless.

FWIW, the other thing that really bugs me is parents who wait until it's their turn at the register in fast food joints (which fortuantly, I seldom eat at anyways), and then wait until they ask the two or three kids that are with them what they want.

This thing about trying to give kids some "self-esteem" or teach them "decision making" is bull shit. How about having some consideration for others?

[Telly Savalas]

129. What I love about these flamewars...

is how people on a supposedly progressive discussion board start advocating a James Dobson style of childrearing. There's nothing that grates my ears more than the phrase "control a child". A child isn't a fucking dog to be trained, but an autonomous human being.

My daughter is typically very well behaved in public because I teach appropriate behaviour, not try to control her. On the rare occasions where her actions could disturb others, I remove her from the situation.

The frequency of these threads make me think that some people have issues that need to be worked through. I encounter dicks who are too slow to turn off their car alarm with about 10 times the frequency I do obnoxious kids. Surely my experience isn't that unique.

[Pithlet]

134. Yes

Basically what I've been trying to say, but said much more succinctly.

I know that there are parents who are oblivious to the behavior of their little darlings and don't have a care about how they're affecting the people around them. But they are far fewer than what many here at DU seem to think. I think they just tend to remember them more. Most parents are not thrilled when their kids are throwing a temper tantrum in public, and most times it ISN'T because they're rotten parents.

[IntravenousDemilo]

137. And here's an old rule:

Children should be seen and not heard.

[Pithlet]

139. And when that old rule was more popular

they also labored in factories. Ah, the good ol days ;)

[IntravenousDemilo]

140. Don't worry, it's still pretty popular. n/m

[Pithlet]

142. About as popular

As hoop skirts and bowler hats. I'm not arguing that there aren't people around who dislike kids. But the notion that they aren't human beings thankfully went out of date.

[blondeatlast]

141. Indeed... (photos)

Edit: the top one has always moved me near to tears.

[Pithlet]

144. A bleak period of our history

and one that continues to affect other parts of the world. And we here benefit from it. So sad. Children have always born the brunt of social ills in this world, and they always will.

[friesianrider]

146. I don't think...

That that has anything to do with what the person posted.

[Pithlet]

147. I didn't say it did.

Where did I imply that?

[friesianrider]

150. You said, "indeed"

And posted the photos. Was there or was there not an implied link to what that poster said about children being "seen and not heard"?

[Pithlet]

154. No

Actually, I wasn't the one who posted the pics, it was someone responding to my post. I merely pointed out that the phrase the poster quoted came from that time period in history. I purposefully put the smilie there so they wouldn't think I was accusing them of supporting child labor. It was a light hearted smack down of an outdated notion.

[Telly Savalas]

217. That maxim is the cornerstone of progressive thought.

[friesianrider]

143. My friend, I am with you.

I fucking hate 99% of kids, except for my two 6-year-old cousins who are well-rounded, polite, respectful, and kind to others (and always have been).

On the rare instance I am at a restaurant or shopping and there is a young child being particularly well-behaved, I make a point to tell the parents how much I appreciate that they raised their kids right and taught them how to behave in public. I remember eating at a restaurant and this one little girl screeched and the mother said calmly, "honey, we are at a restaurant where other people are trying to eat. We need to use our respectful voices." The little girl quieted down right away. Is that so friggin' difficult?

I am so sick of it being acceptable for a child to be a raging maniac in public and ruin my dinner because "they're just being kids." Be a fucking parent or don't have kids.

[Pithlet]

151. Yes. It is friggin difficult.

That little girl listened to her mother at that moment. You haven't seen all the times it is likely that scenario didn't play out. Children, even the best behaved, aren't always like that. Even your cousins. My younger child is very mild tempered. Hardly ever throws a tantrum in public. I can take that kid anywhere. Not so with my firstborn. I've pretty much raised them both consistently. They're only 3 years apart and my parenting skills hadn't changed that drastically.

It isn't acceptable to allow a tantrum to happen and not do anything about it. It is unacceptable to not take others into consideration no matter the situation. But your notion that there is some formula that works every time with all children, and that anyone who has misbehaved kids failed is a fantasy. I would love nothing more than for it to be otherwise.

[friesianrider]

155. Well...

If your child throws a tantrum, you should take the child outside until they can learn to control their behavior in public. This isn't your house where you just block the kids' rampant screaming out. It is rude and obnoxious for parents to just expect everyone else to deal with it because they themselves do. That is what the OP was saying.

There is a formula that works with misbehaving kids: it's called boundaries and consequences. When parents do not set boundaries and make consequences for when those boundaries are crossed, kids get out of control.

[smbolisnch]

156. Exactly.

Not directed at anyone in particular, just in general.

While a parent may think ignoring the behavior is best, the rest of the store/restaurant etc. shouldn't have to listen to the tantrum. Take them outside until they behave.

That is how it worked in my house. If we acted up, we left. Every time, no excuse.

[fudge stripe cookays]

157. .

Perfection.

Sheer perfection. Can I get an amen please?

:applause:
FSC

[smbolisnch]

159. Amen.

:P

[Pithlet]

163. Kids aren't pets

The poster is simply wrong that that is all it takes. If every child were like my second born, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. My firstborn, however, is a different story.

Those of you who are applauding the *bad parenting is the problem, all it takes is XYZ to have well behaved kids all the time* do not understand.

[friesianrider]

167. Well it is the truth.

And by bad parenting, I mean the parent does not set boundaries, set consequences, and stick to them 100% of the time.

Parenting is tough, no one is denying that. But to somehow insist that bad parenting isn't at least the majority of the problem is just silly, I'm sorry. A child does what works, bottom line, any psychologist will tell you that. Behavior does not continue unless there is some pay off for it, period. If a parent only sometimes or rarely follows up disrespectful behavior with consequences, of course the child will continue. Sure sounds like a problem with the parent to me...but hey what do I know. I'm just a childless person who "doesn't understand".

[Pithlet]

172. You don't understand

But it isn't because you're childless. Don't get me wrong, that is not what I'm implying. Plenty of people without children understand what I'm saying. See my post asking you why both of my children are so completely opposite, if it's simply a matter of following correct procedures. If it's as you say, then both of my children should be roughly the same when it comes to behavior.

[friesianrider]

You yourself said that children all have different personalities...

And I concured. Perhaps your one child is naturally well-behaved while the other requires more structure and more consistent application of boundaries and consequences.

[smbolisnch]

179. Nobody is implying that.

What is being implyed is that if your kid is acting like an idiot, take him OUT of the situation.

Why are you not reading that? :shrug:

[Pithlet]

184. They absolutely are implying that.

Taking them out of the situation is great. I still get dirty looks. I still get treated as if I'm an awful parent because that tantrum took place in the first place. The second my kid howls, the judgments fly. The idea that kids won't misbehave if their parents are good parents is wrong.

[smbolisnch]

187. Nobody has implied that. If I missed it, please point me in the right

direction.

This is not a personal attack on you, even though you seem to think it is.

This is about parents who DO NOTHING. They scream at their kids and only add to the problem. They ignore the behavior and think that it will stop. Then the rest of us have to listen to it.

This is not about you.

[Pithlet]

191. I've only responded to posts that generalize

There are specific instances where parents are clueless and don't do what they should. I've never argued otherwise. I never even disagreed with the OP. The posts I respond to have been the ones that have generalized.

[Pithlet]

225. This:

"The problem is that when children misbehave it tends to create noise (in large quantities), which necessarily imposes on other people. Common curtesy demands that we do not impose ourselves on others, and this applies to parents and their children as much as anybody else - if the child is going to be like that, then they should not be in public spaces where they are going to irritate others - it's just plain bad manners."

I cannot guarantee that my child won't scream. Won't cry. Because kids don't have off buttons. Because despite my best efforts, that is going to happen. Removing them doesn't prevent it from happening in the first place, and once it's happened, I am personna non grata.

That's just one example. That person was free to clarify that position, or the others who responded to me in that subthread (telling me to get off the cross, for example), but they didn't.

For some reason my point that kids aren't robots that can be programmed is ridiculous to many. I've tried calling for some understanding from the parents and kids are evil crowd, of which you obviously aren't a member, and I get shit for that by a few people in this thread. Nothing short of agreeing that most parents are clueless and their kids are bratty is good enough. This flame war is common here since DU got popular. There was a time when this crap didn't happen. When I planned on attending a DU gathering with my family. Now, I will never do so.

[hyphenate]

211. But that's not what it's all about!

It's all about whether a child has enough intelligence at the age of 6 to know what is and what isn't appropriate behavior, and whether the parent has the ability to understand what the limitations of the child are. Some children are a bigger challenge than others--that is obvious and expected. Some parents themselves are a challenge. Not everyone out there who has kids should have them. And there are those who don't really give a damn about anything their children do.

I suppose there is a fine line for some between controlling a child and teaching a child. To me there is a huge difference between a parent who is consistent with how they raise a child and one who simply allows laissez faire. Letting a child run wild, regardless of where that is, is not a good thing no matter what the parents' attitude is. When a child is ignored, the child will raise the stakes, expecting to be tended to at some point. It's not the right tact to follow, I don't think, because the child will continue to seek approval and attention until it happens. And the higher the level at which the child finally gets what he needs, the higher his level of tolerance of what will and what won't get him exactly what he wants.

This is obvious even with infants. They will, in some part of their mind, understand even at a young age what will get them attention and what won't. As a child grows, and as his/her need for attention expands, the instinct for wanting attention increases, and they will find that need growing with their own growth. Those parents who continually ignore them will find (eventually!) that the child's behavior get worse as the years pass. At some point, the child will be out of control, and there is little that can be done to bring their actions back to some semblance of normal.

So while I don't care for kids, don't like having them around me on a fulltime basis, and obviously don't have any of my own, I still have my own perspective on the philosophy of children. We ALL do, and again, it shouldn't be "parent vs non-parent" it should be what we have in common. If we accept that some people, regardless of whether they have any of their own, have their own positions on the raising of children, and if we accept that perhaps there might be a point or two that is worth hearing, why should we argue and flame each other when there is just an attempt to understand what each side is trying to say?

[Pithlet]

213. It is what it is about for some in this thread.

I'm not arguing anything you've said. You've been perfectly reasonable in this thread.

[hyphenate]

223. Thank you! eom

[Pithlet]

160. I understand the OP

But I wasn't responding to the OP.

It just isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Believe me. There was a time before I had kids that I used to have similar thoughts. I thought Good parenting = pefectly behaved kids. But, when you have kids, you realize that they aren't like having pets. Kids aren't all the same, and every kid isn't always the same all the time. If it were only a matter of setting up boundaries, then my kids would be absolutely 100% well behaved all the time. Kids aren't dogs, they're individual people.

BTW, I don't expect everyone else to deal with anything. I do whatever I can to alleviate the situation, and if I can, I do leave. However, many in this thread have insisted that parents shouldn't take their kids out in public if they can't behave, and that is an unreasonable expectation because no kid ever behaves all the time.

Being among the general public can suck. There are all kinds of things that people do every day that bug the shit out of me. It's called life. I can rant about it all I want, but I can't insist that everyone else stay home.

[friesianrider]

162. Well I don't think you do.

And I believe it is as easy as I say it is: boundaries and consequences. Ask any psychologist and they will tell you the same thing (my well-behaved cousin's dad and mom are psychologists). Unless your child has some psychological problem, then it should work 99.99999% of the time. In fact, most psychologists advise that children with ADHD and such require even more well-defined boundaries and consequences.

And no, I'm not saying good parenting does not equal perfect kids. But good parenting DOES mean setting boundaries and consequences and sticking to them 100% of the time, no matter what. Inevitably, boundaries will be crossed by kids - no one is arguing that. But when that happens, you've got to be a parent and follow up with consequences. As Dr. Phil says, "kids have got to be able tp predict with 100% certainty what the consequences will be for their actions." You said that you will leave "if you can" if your kid throws a tantrum. This may be the problem: inconsistency. If you can, you take the kid outside as punishment and if you can't then you just do what you can? That is inconsistent parenting, so the kid never knows if he can or can't get away with unacceptable behavior...so why not give it a shot that Mom is really busy or whatever and will just give in or won't really do anything?

[Pithlet]

165. Yes. That all sounds wonderful

It makes absolute sense. In fact, it makes such good sense that my sister used to go on and about this to me when my firstborn would act up. All kinds of advice similar to what you just told me was freely given, as if somehow I wasn't already practicing those things. She was smug and sure that when SHE had kids, it would be different.

Then she had her own kid. And that crap stopped abruptly. But, I don't tell her "I told you so". I didn't even take too much smug satisfaction myself, although I did allow just a little ;) While there are more than likely some additional issues with my firstborn, her very highly spirited daughter is very much normal. She's a great mom, and I believe I am as well, if I don't say so myself. And I still manage to get dirty looks, comments from strangers, and advice given to me by childfree people that sound very much like what you just posted. What's a mom to do?

[friesianrider]

166. Yeah, yeah I know.

Us childless folks just "don't understand." And to some extent I'm sure you're right. But plenty of parents manage to figure it out if they're willing to work hard at it and do what it takes to be consistent. From your own posts, it sounds like inconsistency is your problem. But I don't know you or your kids, so can't say.

MBottom line is, if your kids are being loud and obnoxious, don't wonder why people give you dirty looks.

[Pithlet]

169. How in the hell do you know what my problem is?

That is exactly what I'm talking about. You have no clue. You don't know me. Yet you fully feel as though you're qualified to tell me what my problem is. It fully explains why you think what you do.

People give me dirty looks because they're rude and obnoxious. They are adults, and they should know better.

[friesianrider]

171. I don't know, I'm just giving my opinion.

Based on what you said. It sounds to *me* like you are inconsistent. I do not know you or your kids so cannot say of course, but you said that "when possible" you take your kids outside, which implies you don't always do it when they act up...which means inconsistency.

I'm not trying to offend you, I'm just giving my opinion...it's what people here at DU do :)

And I always give dirty looks to parents whose kids are acting like wild animals im public. I'm allowed to.

[Pithlet]

174. I'm not trying to offend you either

When possible doesn't mean that I only decide to remove them from the situation when I feel like it. It means when I can. It isn't always possible to do that. Sometimes I have deadlines, sometimes I have reasons why I have to do what I do at that time. Sometimes removing them from the situation is exactly what they want, and doing so would only reinforce the negative behavior.

You are allowed to give dirty looks. And I'm allowed to think about that what I will :)

[friesianrider]

175. Okay, that's just what I'm saying.

You said sometimes you had deadlines...and I personally do not feel that that is an excuse to let a valuable lesson slide like that. It is reinforcing to the child that if Mommy is busy, you can get away with certain things you otherwise would not be able to. If a child knows that sometimes they can behave unacceptably because Mommy or Daddy is busy, of course they will always give it a shot. Again, inconsistency is my guess. :shrug:

[Pithlet]

178. No. You misunderstood me.

I'm not inconsistent with my kid. It is rare that I'm ever in a situation where I have no choice. I'm not inconsistent. And, like I said, sometimes removing them from the situation is what they want. I do what is best for the situation. Consistent.

What is a parent to do? I guess getting judged by people who don't have a clue is part of the package.

[friesianrider]

181. Alright well...

You have admitted that you are inconsistent. What is "best" for the situation doesn't imply consistency.

I think you're making rampant assumptions about me more than I am about you. I'm only going ff what you said, I'm not judging and I do not "not have a clue."

[Pithlet]

188. No

You are judging me. And I have not admitted that I'm inconsistent. There is no way for you to come to that conclusion based on anything I've said. When I'm in public, and my kid throws a tantrum I leave, unless something physical and completely unavoidable prevents me. And I haven't judged you, merely told you that you are incorrect. But, because you've already judged me inconsistent, I think it's pretty clear why you're incorrect. You will judge without all the facts. Feel free to discuss other matters, but on the issue of my personal parenting, consider the matter closed.

[friesianrider]

194. nless something physical and completely unavoidable prevents me."

Like a deadline? ;)

You've admitted more than once that you do not always take your kid outside. You said it. Shall I post the link to your posts where you did? If a child knows that sometimes Mommy will go easy on him because she's busy or whatever, then he will try it. By saying now that unless something "physical" prevents you from leaving with your kid...you're just backtracking on what you've previously said.

You may think I am incorrect, but clearly several people think I am right, and I know I am right on this. Your arguments simply do not hold up here, I'm sorry.

[Pithlet]

197. No no no no no no no no no

If a family member is sick, should I leave whether than pick up their perscription? If we're out of milk and bread, should we just go without? Deadline might not have been the right word. What I really meant was if stopping whatever I'm doing may have dire conseqences. And, you haven't addressed, oh parenting guru, what I should do if leaving would actually be a reward because he was bored and didn't want to be there. What do I do, parenting expert?

I have said absolutely nothing where you can draw the conclusions you have. In matters pertaining to my parenting, this discussion is over.

[friesianrider]

199. Well there you go.

You're inconsistent. Your reasons for choosing not to remove the child from the store may be good enough, but the fact is if you DO NOT follow up with consequences SOME of the time, you are being *inconsistent*. You keep backtracking with what you've said and trying to quantify and justify it, but the fact is that sometimes...for whatever reason...you do not follow up bad behavior with a predictable consequence. Once again, inconsistent. I'm not trying to offend you, just calling it like I see it.

I am not a parenting guru...this is BASIC parenting. Boundaries and consequences for bad behavior. :shrug:

[Pithlet]

202. You are the parenting guru

I've been so wrong all this time. I'm an idiot who knows nothing about parenting. You win.

[friesianrider]

205. Like I said...

Now I know you've got nothing left to argue with...you're down to personal insults. I'm sorry it offends you so, but what I've said is the truth. It is simple psychology and basic parenting. Boundaries and consequences.

It's been fun, but my childless, parenting-guru self is going downstairs to make some food now. :) You've got last word - go ahead!

[Pithlet]

208. I'm not offended

But it is obvious you think you hold the "truth" here. You are the keeper of truth.

I have no need for the last word. You are welcome to respond to this post.

[smbolisnch]

186. Well if your child were being rude and obnoxious in a restaurant or store

I would give you dirty looks because you are ignoring him and expecting the rest of the world to do the same.

Why don't you just take them out of the situation? I don't understand why that is such a difficult solution. :shrug:

[Pithlet]

193. It isn't a difficult solution

However, the tantrum continues all the way out the door. It doesn't stop it. And it doesn't stop them from happening in the future.

It really is damned if I do, and damned if I don't, isn't it? Especially considering that NOT EVEN ONCE have I advocated that parents should not remove their kids. I can't win.

[smbolisnch]

196. It may not stop it, but it is considerate to others.

My husband and I went out to a nice italian restaurant for our anniversary. This was not "Denny's".

About 10 minutes in, a family with a toddler and an infant sat in a booth across from us. The kid was banging his silverware and making noise, and the baby was whining/crying.

Why should we have to listen to that???

[Pithlet]

200. No, you shouldn't

I've never argued otherwise.

See, this always happens. Because I won't put up with the bullshit here at DU that parenting is easy yand misbehaved kids are because of bad parents, that I automatically agree with all parents. That I have no problem with parents letting their kids run lose in restaurants. It's simply not true.

[smbolisnch]

203. We all know parenting is hard, and it has been said in this thread.

[Pithlet]

206. And notice

That those aren't the posts I've ever responded to. There have been plenty of reasonable posts in this thread. And then there are the posts by people who think they've just got it all figured out.

[smbolisnch]

209. Yes, you have. Friesianrider was the one who said that.

:hi:

[Pithlet]

210. Friesianrider

has commented on my parenting skills; something he knows nothing about. I find nothing reasonable in that. He/she seems to think that you train children, not raise them.

[smbolisnch]

212. She was commenting on the lack of parenting skills that so many

people in the general public exhibit. And I agree with her 100%.
You seem to be taking it very personally, for whatever reason.

[Pithlet]

215. I only started taking it personally when she criticized me

because I didn't agree with her assesment of perfect parenting. If it were merely comments about bad parenting skills, I wouldn't even care. Of course there are bad parents. That's a big fat "duh". I'm not arguing that. I take issue with those who think that it is a simple matter. That kids can be made to do whatever we wish. That whenever they do see unruly kids that it automatically means the parent doesn't give a shit. It just doesn't work that way.

I've never allowed my kids to disrupt others. And I'm not excusing parents who do. There have been some posts with some legitimate beefs about the behavior of some people. Like the kid who smeared his feces on books. Like the parents that hold the line up so their kids can decide what they want. I agree with them. They're being rude and inconsiderate. And I agree with the OP. I think the kids in her instances were badly behaved and the parent was not doing the right thing.

[friesianrider]

230. Pithlet...

You seriously should consider going back and re-reading some of my posts. You are spinning my words completely and interpreting them to conform to your belief that I am just an ass who has it out for parents and just wants to make you feel like an idiot. Nowhere did I say that unruly kids are the result of parents who don't give a shit. NOWHERE. You are just making things up, and backtracking on your own words. What I said was that unruly kids are either the result of a) a legitimate medical problem with the child that prevents them from behaving "normally" (and of course, "normal" is an abstract term even in psychology but you get my drift I'm sure), or b) parents who are not consistent in their enforcement of rules. Perhaps this is why you are so personally offended by what I've said - you are hearing what I'm saying but interpreting it as something else because you refuse to accept what I'm saying as having even a tad bit of validity.

[Pithlet]

233. No, I'm not

You did state that you thought my parenting was inconsistent. You said that. Based on a few posts on a message board. Sorry, but I'm going to respond to that.

I haven't twisted anything you've said. I've merely disagreed. Your statement that an unruly child is either a result of A or B is what I take exception to. And it's all I've ever really argued.

You seriously should consider going back and re-reading some of my posts. You are spinning my words completely and interpreting them to conform to your belief that I am just an ass who has it out for parents and just wants to make you feel like an idiot.

Nope. That is your interpretation. Which is ironically what you're accusing ME of doing. I disagree with your notion of parenting, and I took exception to your presuming to know where I'm going wrong in parenting my kids. That is all.

[friesianrider]

234. That's all you argued?

Calling me sarcastic names and hurling personal insults was "just taking issue" with what I said?

Yes, I said your parenting was inconsistent because you said "whenever possible" you take your kids outside. That means you do not always do it = inconsistent. I also said that I obviously do not know you or your kids to say for sure, but it was just my opinion. Just as you're allowed to give yours on what I've said, I'm allowed to give mine on what you said. I'm sorry if that offended you.

[Pithlet]

235. Sorry. I didn't.

First of all, you're the one that keeps doing it to me. In the last post you stated that I think you're an ass. I don't. I just disagree with you. Yet another presumption you've made.

Yes, I said your parenting was inconsistent because you said "whenever possible" you take your kids outside. That means you do not always do it = inconsistent.

There has never been a time when I've let my kids throw a fit with no consequences. Never. Not once. There is more than one way to discipline a child. I already answered you the multiple times you've thrown that at me. Removing a child is not necessarily discipline. Sometimes he wants to leave, for example. You've never addressed that. I even asked you directly how you would handle it if leaving would actually be giving in to the tantrum? Why won't you answer that? If you do nothing else, at least tell me what you would do in that circumstance so that you could consistantly discipline your child every time.

[friesianrider]

236. You are just looking for confirmation...

Of what you already decided is right. I challenged that, and you got huffy immediately and felt personally attacked. Because I dared question it you started acting immature and making sarcastic comments which were uncalled for.

I don't think I said that the way to discipline a child is ALWAYS to take them out of the store - removing a child from a place is just OFTEN the best method IMHO. Obviously, when you're talking child psychology, you must find what the child values or dislikes and use that as leverage. More often than not, a child values time in public, in stores, with "the group." They don't want to be sitting in a car with Mom when there's ice cream waiting in a restaurant, which is why taking a child outside as a time-out often works so well. Obviously it isn't always the case. Like I said, it is a matter of knowing what the child values or dislikes and using that to teach them that good behavior yields good consequences.

[Pithlet]

237. When you make comments about people's parenting skills

that are unfounded, you're not going to like how they respond. Maybe this was a lesson for you. My comments were sarcastic, but they were absolutely called for. You could have immediately backed down when it became obvious to you (or it should have) that you crossed the line. You tell a parent you have never met in your life that her problem may be that she isn't consistent in her parenting, and that you think you know better, don't go whining about her sarcastic response to you and expect her to back down. Until I hear from you that you don't know me, and couldn't possibly know how effective my parenting is, and until you keep clinging to bits of sentences of mine to prove your point that I'm not consistent in my parenting, I'm not going to react all warm and fuzzy towards you. Sorry.

[friesianrider]

238. My comments were not unfounded.

I cannot make it any clearer to you that you admitted in certain circumstances you do not always follow through with proper punishment - in not as many words.

I didn't cross any line - you did when you started making personal attacks. It was classless, tacky, and rude. I expect you to back down when you make inappropriate comments like that which aren't related to the topic at hand. But if you can't see how irresponsible and rude your behavior toward me is, no wonder you seem to be unable to identify it in your own children.

I honestly don't care to discuss this with you any longer. I've spent more energy on it than I cared to, and am starting to feel the need to resort to personal attacks myself, which I don't want to do. So, I'll just say that you've obviously convinced yourself you are 110% right and won't hear any different - and to prove how "right" you are, you've resorted to making rude comments about me who YOU don't know, either. I only wish you'd have had an open-mind to what I was saying before shooting it down immediately because perhaps you know you're guilty of what I was saying.

Like I said, go ahead and have last word. *sigh* I know you can't stand to not have it. :eyes:

[Pithlet]

239. No, I didn't.

Never once did I say that. I've always followed through with consequences. I never admitted any such thing. You drew that conclusion yourself. Period.

I never personally attacked you. I was sarcastic. But, no personal attacks.

You keep responding just as I do. Somehow I'm the one that needs the last word though. But, whatever. Don't reply so that it will prove that I just want the last word. Go ahead.

[Pithlet]

170. While I have your ear

Why won't you explain to me why my second born is so much better at behaving in public than my older one is? If I'm so inconsistent. If I'm such an incompetent boob. If kids are merely projects that will react in an exact manner to a perfectly prescribed program, then why the difference?

[friesianrider]

173. Well..

I never called you an incompetant boob. I would guess that one child has a different personality as you say...which means maybe your second naturally is well-behaved and can deal with inconsistency (if that is indeed the problem - I personally do not know as I've said numerous times now) but your other child requires more structure to be at his/her best. It happens a lot...some kids require more consistent structure than others.

[Pithlet]

176. And some kids will do what they will no matter what

That is my point. So, the next time you see a kid pitching a fit, just know that it isn't always because the parent didn't do the right thing. That they aren't raising their kids right. That the kid is a bad kid. Conversely, when you see a good kid, don't assume that is always the case. I think if people tried to understand that more, it would go a long way.

[friesianrider]

177. No, they won't.

We're talking about a child here. They do what WORKS, plain and simple. No kid is going to keep behaving a certain way if they always get punished for it consistently each and every time...they just won't. Period.

Only time they will is if they have a medical problem, in which case they need some sort of professional help (ie, medication or what have you).

[Pithlet]

182. Not true.

Not true. It just isn't true, as much as you'd like it to be. Children simply aren't trained like that. They aren't animals.

[friesianrider]

185. Yeah, okay, I totally made that up.

It's got nothing to do with a dog...not sure why that analogy keeps popping up with you. It is simple human psychology - for adults and especially for kids. No child or human will keep doing something that yields undesirable results. If you've ever taken a Psych 101 class you will learn that. Hell if you watch Dr. Phil you will learn that. People do what works. If there is no pay off in some form (even if it isn't obvious to you) then the behavior will not continue. Like I said, simple human psychology.

[Pithlet]

192. I don't watch Dr Phil

He is a hack. THat might explain some things, here.

THe dog analogy keeps popping up because of this: "People do what works. If there is no pay off in some form (even if it isn't obvious to you) then the behavior will not continue.." That is true of dogs. It is not true of people, no matter the age. We are far too complex for such neat platitudes.

[friesianrider]

195. LOL!

Hun, it is simple human psychology. Ask any psychologist if humans will continue a behavior that ALWAYS leads to undesirable results. If you ALWAYS lost $5,000 everytime you threw a tantrum, even though you really wanted to have one, would you keep doing it?

Go ahead. Find a psychologist and ask them if this notion isn't accurate. I double DOG dare you (there, I threw a dog into this discussion for good measure).

[Pithlet]

198. You have it all figured out

All psychologists think the same thing, and they all agree with you. You're so right, oh parenting expert. I bow before your obvious expertise in all things human.

[friesianrider]

201. Okay then.

Now I know you got nothing left to argue with, that you're stooping to personal insults. :eyes:

[Pithlet]

204. It's not that I have nothing left

It's that nothing I say gets through to you. Why should I just keep repeating myself over and over? What does that accomplish?

I've tried to get you to see that parenting isn't a cookbook you can follow. You obviously don't agree. I'm sure it makes you feel happy thinking you've shown me, the inconsistent parent.

[friesianrider]

207. Yes, it clearly is.

I don't know how much more I can simplify it, or why you keep arguing with basic elementary child psychology. Now I know you've got nothing left to argue with...you're down to personal insults. I'm sorry it offends you so, but what I've said is the truth. It is simple psychology and basic parenting. Boundaries and consequences.

It's been fun, but my childless, parenting-guru self is going downstairs to make some food now. :) You've got last word - go ahead!

[Pithlet]

218. Since you've graciously offered.

Because my older son is being tested for autism, I've delt with more than one child pychiatrist. So, while I do not have a degree in child psychiatry, I do know at least a little bit about it. I've read thousands of pages on the subject. I'm not just relying on daytime TV acquired knowledge. But, I do not insist that be the last word. As I said before, feel free to reply if you feel you have anything to add.

[smbolisnch]

152. Similar situation on vacation.

There was a table next to us with two sweet, well behaved girls and one behind us with 3 screaming, hyperactive kids.

It got so bad we almost left. When we finished, my MIL told the two little girls and their parents how good they were. Of course, they already knew that. The girls liked to hear it, though.

There is NO reason that kids should not know how to behave appropriately in public. If I EVER acted like that as a kid, my mom and dad would have taken me home. End of story.

[friesianrider]

158. Me too.

Of course kids want to stay with the adults when out at dinner or at a store or whatever, so my Mom saying "now if you can't be quiet we're going to sit in the car until you can (or go home)" was all it took to shut me up!

[-..__...]

183. This sums it up quite nicely for me.

I'm surprised no one else has posted it yet.

http://www.lonestarbrit.com/fun/BestCommercialEver.mpg

[friesianrider]

189. No friggin' shit! :P

I can think of a few people who *should* have used condoms!
I love that commercial...thanks for posting!

[smbolisnch]

190. OMG

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[hyphenate]

221. Oh mi god

That is perfect. I've seen those kinds of kids!! :rofl:

[Jack_Dawson]

214. But it's different when they're YOUR kids...

:puke:

[hyphenate]

222. No, never said that

in fact I referred to my own nephew as the stuff criminals are made of, considering his father has been in jail more than he's been out, and his mother, my sister the alky, has given him free reign most of his life. I think he's psychotic, but he's only 14 and hasn't killed anyone....yet.

[Pale Blue Dot]

224. Cages for children.

That will solve the problem. Bravo. May I suggest never going out? :eyes:

[smbolisnch]

226. It's not about not going out- it's about spoiled kids.

nt

[hyphenate]

248. Been there, done that

Have stayed indoors pretty much for the past three, four years. Venturing out is something I need to do now. Even if my state of mind isn't perfect, I need to start doing it regardless.

[Floogeldy]

232. You have no authority. Your rule is void and unenforceable.

My advice to you is to never go into a store again.

Heh. Sorry.

}(

[hyphenate]

249. Yeah--fat chance!

:P

[RoyGBiv]

240. You hate kids ...

Unless they are "mannerly" or fit whatever your definition of "polite" is.

O-kay.

I have a small suggestion for you. Don't ever go out into public again. Ever.

[hyphenate]

250. Mannerly, polite, respecful....

If a child is going to wreak havoc in a store, with his mother adding to the chaos by shouting across the room herself, I don't think my request for a little restraint is too much.

I understand when children are getting tired, I understand parents who have to shop and drag their kids with them when they do, and I've seen plenty of children beginning to get tired and crying in the stores. What I refuse to accept are the children and their parents who can't understand that a public store is not a playground, that the balls and other toys they play with in the store are NOT theirs, and are merchandise, and that the aisles in the stores are not basketball courts for them to use and abuse.

This is, and has been since my original post, a rant about a specific mother and her two brats, and how they pissed me off while I was out shopping, and that's ALL it was. Regardless, we all have our own thoughts, opinions, ideas and philosophies on how we feel children should be raised, whether we have children of our own or not. I was just pointing out one bad mother with two rotten little weasels. It's not how everyone thinks, and for the most part, I keep my own counsel on the topic to myself, because "hating children" is not a very popular subject.

[RoyGBiv]

256. As has been pointed out ...

This is a problem with the parents, not the kids specifically. Stick a kid in a wide open place with toys everywhere and then expect him or her not to want to play with them or run wild in all the corners of the store? Sorry ... not going to happen. Kids are untrained social animals. They know what we teach them, and if we don't teach them not to act this way, this is to be expected.

But to blame it on the kids specifically, to the point of suggesting they are deserving of an emotion as strong as hate, is going way too far with the criticism.

[REP]

241. You Hate Kids?

Come sit with me! :hi:

I always wonder - why is it, when a person who doesn't have and doesn't want children dares to complain about spoiled, undisciplined children misbehaving in public, there's always a few people posting, "well, I hope you never have children!" Like that's an insult or something. I hope I never have children, too, and had my fallopian tubes and my endometrium literally burnt out to make DAMN sure I don't. I've never seen a thread originator respond, "and YOUR children are *especially* why I don't want any!" but somebody always seems to take it that way.

A case of the guilty fleeing where no man persuith?

[friesianrider]

244. Hahahahaha!!!

REP, you and me are like --------><-------- !

[REP]

246. Then You Sit By Me, Too!

Of course, we may have to go to a strip club to find someplace that isn't child-ridden....

[hyphenate]

252. I really don't know

the answer to your question. For some reason, some people think that people without kids have no right to an opinion on childrearing. Why not? We were all children ourselves, once upon a time. It's not like something which we can't ever be, and some people have remarkable insight into the subject.

A little bit of manners in polite society isn't too much to ask for, I don't think. It's not like it's a backyard picnic where only family members and friends are gathered; it's not like it's a public beach where children get boisterous anyhow and are expected to be a lot less restrained, and it's not a playground which is available for the supreme purpose of letting the children go wild. And even then, there is the component of the mother herself entering the fray and encouraging her children in their bad behavior by doing it herself! WTF?

Anyhow, I am truly amazed at the response to this thread, and not necessarily all in a good way! I don't think I will vent my anger or give my opinion on children again any time soon, at least not here! It's a little too dangerous, methinks.

[tigereye]

243. as usual

the level of intolerance and lack of understanding of children in general in this thread and others like it, astounds me. No, I don't let my son run around like a maniac in stores, I never have. But noisy kids, welcome to reality. Sometimes they are just having fun, and it saddens me that so many here find this intolerable.

Please don't call children "fuckers", wild animals, or other offensive names. Thank you.

[BlueIris]

245. "The two little fuckers--er, kids"

Glad to see I'm not the only one who occasionally winds up refering to them this way.

[ScreamingMeemie]

257. I, myself, really hate it when adults act like imperious, perfect humans

when much of their behaviour in public is far worse than that of a child.

My advice to those who don't like shopping with the general public....use the internet...that way you won't bother my kids and I with your grumpy demeanor while we are out shopping.

No wonder I hate a lot of adults.

[Moderator]

259. I'm locking this thread

reason:

flame-fest