How do you help a loved one who is an alcoholic

[nadine_mn]

Hey DU

I need help and advice
My 50 yr uncle is an alcoholic - he is more than an uncle to me - he is like a brother (only 15 yrs older) and we have been close all my life.

I am an only child, my mom is his sister and my grandparents (who are really like my parents) are dying. My grandparents are the most loving and giving people I have ever known and now my grandma is in the hospital w/ cancer and my grandpa just found out he has cancer in his lung. My uncle moved back in with my grandparents a couple of years ago (this is a repeated pattern) after losing his job to outsourcing. I helped him move and it was the saddest day I have had in a long time - his apt had become a complete and total trash house, and he just said toss everything - and we (my other uncles and I) reluctantly did. My grandma knows she has enabled his drinking and refused tough love - she admitted she would rather he drink himself to death in her home than out on the street.
My uncle is an amazing man - he can do anything, he never does anything halfway - when he gets a job any job - he always excels, he has performed in community theater and stole the show everytime, and when he loves he loves with every fiber in his being. I know that right now if I needed him for anything I could call him and he would be there for me - family is so important to him. But when he drinks - all his self-loathing and destructiveness takes over. He loses his job, relationships, health everything.

His 4 brothers and my mom all know he is an alcoholic and we have all talked about how we wish he would stop drinking. But no one in my family will step in and confront him (got a whole lot of passivity on that side of my family). The day my other uncles and I helped my uncle move, we were all shocked by how he was living yet after hours of throwing his life away (photos, trophies, books) where do we all end up = yup the bar. I don't think my family could support him in dry activities.

I am scared that with my grandparents (and his safety net)declining health, he will drink himself to death. Unlike my mom and uncles, I cannot just stand by and watch this wonderful, yet so hurt man die in front of me w/out doing something. But w/out other family support I don't know what I can do. I cannot talk to him face-to-face about this because I am terrified if he becomes enraged (he can get violent). So I am thinking of writing him a letter - telling him how much I love him, how proud I am of him, but also how his drinking is taking him away from us. But I am not sure if that would do anything - is now a bad time because of grandparents? But I am afraid that if they die soon, that his only coping will be alcohol and that I will lose 3 family members.

I don't care if he gets mad at me if I can get through to him (even just a little). I have this feeling that he is so filled w/ self-hate and that is what has led to this lifetime of drinking (I know there are some other things too). I want him to know that he is worth love and affection, that I have admired and been so proud of him - I want him to have a little piece of unconditional love in w/ all those demons.

For anyone of you who have either been in my place or my uncle's - can you please pass on some advice. Thanks

[Oeditpus Rex]

1. Sad to say, there really isn't much you can do

If you send the letter, he'll probably use it as an excuse to drink. If anyone in the family confronts him, he'll probably use it as an excuse to drink. If you do nothing, he'll probably use it as an excuse to drink.

The one thing you can do is not enable him. Don't cover for him. Don't make excuses for him. Don't clean up after him. If he gets thrown in jail for DUI, don't bail him out. (At least he'll be sober while he's there.)

It's hard as all hell, but the only thing that has a chance of getting an alcoholic to stop drinking is if he or she is forced to face the consequences of his or her drinking, almost always repeatedly, until they finally get to the point where the consequences are worse than not drinking — or, put a different way, until they can't stand their drunken selves anymore.

I know.

In the meantime, check your phone book for a local Al-Anon chapter for support and coping techniques.

:hug:

[SPKrazy]

2. Go to Alanon

they will help you to regain control of your life and to love the person but hate their disease.

there might be ways to commit someone for treatment

however, there is no guarantee by far that this would help

there is the saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" (or not) Father Joseph Martin (a semi famous lecturer in the recovery/treatment community) added this to the end of that "but you can sure make him thirsty"

most people don't want to go through a treatment program.

some will decide that they do want to quit when they get thirsty for sobriety.

most will die from their disease

:(

good luck

sorry I have no more hope than that

:hug:

[Maraya1969]

6. I second on Alanon. I've heard that when family members go to Alanon

their loved ones have a better chance of getting and staying sober. In the process of learning how to take care of yourself you also learn how your behavior enables the addict.

I also have seen great responses with interventions. I think if you called around to the rehabs in your area you would be able to find someone to facilitate.

[Giant Robot]

24. "Committing" is unlikely

I am not sure about the laws in the OP's state, but in my state there is no such thing as "commitment" for alcoholism. The process of involuntary hospitalization specifically mentions that alcohol or substance abuse is not a reason for involuntary hospitalization. I suspect that things are pretty similar for that across the country.

If you are looking to force him into some type of treatment against his will, which may not be a bad idea but definitely NOT where I would recommend you start, is get him arrested for something, specifically when he is drunk. That gets him into the justice system, which again in my state not the OP's, tries hard to get alcoholics/drug users a way out at first, i.e. ordered treatment over jail. So if you know he is driving drunk, call the police. It sucks to do that but it is effective some times.

Alanon. Go and be open to the experience. That is my first (and probably the umpteenth for this thread) recommendation. Learn to care for yourself in this, it will be vital.

You certainly can confront him, if you feel comfortable. Maintain strong boundaries and be clear with him what they are, i.e. "If you continue yelling at me like that I will call the police." I would suggest you know where to go next, if he says, Yes I want help" so you are not stuck trying to figure out the next step and his resolve is melting away.

Learn to forgive yourself. Forgive your family too if you can.

Good luck, and if you need anything you can try to pm me.

[elleng]

3. nadine; there ARE things you can do.

I know, i've done them. It appears difficult now, but in fact its doable.

I'll be brief now, but just to give you some hope, you CAN confront him, yourself; I'll return and tell you about it.

And DO join alanon; we all need companions, especially in such times.

Be back soon; cheer up.

Ellen

[LeftyMom]

4. What Oedi said.

My Mom is in recovery again after a relapse, so I know this all too well: he won't quit until he's ready, and all you can do trying to help before then is make yourself crazy.

[elleng]

5. nadine, I've returned

with some thoughts and info which I hope will be useful to you and your uncle.

Briefly, my 'alcoholism' education occurred as result of hoping to marry a man who, I had concluded, was alcoholic; I would not marry him unless/until he stopped drinking. SO, I learned what I could (20+ years ago; no computer!) from discussing with those working at several treatment programs around DC, where we lived. I visited several, and decided which one seemed reasonable to me.

In the process, i made an appointment at one, don't remember name. My goal was to learn about their treatment programs for the alcoholic. The person I met spent some time questioning me about such things as MY family history, and made it clear they expected me to pay for what I had expected to be ME interviewing THEM! I don't remember whether I did so, but psychoanalyzing ME was obviously NOT what I had in mind!!!!

I'm attaching info about alcoholism which may or may not be redundant to you; it includes stuff we learned after john was in a 2-week program, and they distributed the book Under the Influence, by Dr. James Milam. The attached arises from a program based on Milam's studies. Overview of the disease is here, and I'll also include home page of this new group, in Washington State.

http://www.lakesidemilam.com/DiseaseOfAddictionExpandedOverview.htm
http://www.lakesidemilam.com/index.htm

Intervention next.

[nadine_mn]

23. Thank you for the links

I never really knew just how alcoholism effects the body and its scary. I hate that he is going through this

[elleng]

53. Glad info useful.

It is an awful disease, and affects SO MANY!

[NMDemDist2]

7. when I was drinking, booze was the solution and 'you people' were the problem

until he sees there is a problem not much you can do

go to Alanon

try 3-4 meetings and they'll be able to advise you

[nadine_mn]

12. Thats what I am afraid of

I am worried that he will never see that he has a problem because everyone has covered and ignored the problem.

I will look into Alanon - thank you for your input

[Inchworm]

8. Tell him you love him as often as you can

There is some good advice and stuff in this thread.

I drank et al to excess for many years. I got sentenced by courts to AA meetings so many times I cannot remember. One day in the late 90s I said dang I am gonna kill myself at this rate. That was the first time I actually heard what they said in those meetings. It worked for several years.

I was reflecting on your question and thought for a split second that hearing someone say that they loved me would have made the whole thing easier. This is just my opinion.

Good luck Nadine. You are in my thoughts.

:hug:

[elleng]

10. I love you, Inchworm!

.

[Inchworm]

11. awww, shucks

:blush:

I love you too!!

G'night

:)

[elleng]

9. Intervention is possible

with just you and him.

I was planning to arrange a 'family' intervention, which would have meant john's family coming in from out of town; I think I had arranged for him to be examined for admission on a certain date, but my fancy idea hadn't worked. I called the hospital and one of the kind folks told me that i could do it myself, and explained how.

I made a short list of his 'destructive' behaviors, and/or objective facts showing that he was out of control, like losing a job, being unable to get another (he's a lawyer, so being a creative genius is NOT a major term of employment!) I spoke to him in morning, before he had anything to drink; otherwise its hopeless.

I told him he'd have to move out of my apartment unless he agreed to enter a treatment program. I intended to tell him more, like effect of his behaviors on friends and family, but ended up not necessary; he agreed.

An important part of a good program is self-diagnosis, ie, recognizing attributes of alcoholism that he's known made him different for a long time; being able to drink MUCH MORE than others without falling on face, so early he recognizes things about the disease that he's known about all along.

You may get ideas/anecdotes from family members, like there won't be any more enabling. And let him know family is behind him, of course.

ASs to the self-hate you mention, it might be because he somehow knows he's different, and hasn't been able to face/confront the problem. One great thing about Milam's studies is he's shown that alcoholism is a DISEASE, and it cannot be cured; he's NOT morally deficient, but has to face up to it, with the help of friends etc.

Its late now so i'm not being at all creative, but we can talk again if you'd like. I suggest that you read through the entire site I sent you; lots of info there, even tho they do some promoting of their services.

Fingers Crossed! Ellen

[Phillycat]

13. There is nothing you can do.

So sayeth the recovering drunk. Give him consequences for his behavior, like refusing to spend time with him when he's drunk/violent (and I wonder about your reality disconnect when you say he is a "wonderful man", but "can get violent" - I fifth the suggestion for Al Anon), otherwise, there is nothing. He will not change until he's ready to change.

[nadine_mn]

21. I understand what you are saying about the disconnect

but as someone who has worked w/ domestic violence for over 8 yrs I am not fooling myself that the alcohol makes him do it. I think I am good person w/ good qualities, but before I got help for my depression I used to fight...a lot. And I know, if some hits me I will get violent back.
He has stabbed himself in the chest before - so I do not want to get into a confronatation w/ him w/out more support for both of us.

[Phillycat]

29. Certainly not!

Good luck to you. :hug:

[Shell Beau]

14. I have an uncle who is pretty much in the same boat.

Sometimes there isn't much you can do. They really have to want to help themselves. We see things that they don't see in themselves or refuse to see. I wish there was a magic answer. :hug:

[Seeking Serenity]

15. Keep reminding yourself

you didn't cause it, you can't control it, you can't cure it.

I join in the above posts and recommend you find an Al-Anon Family Group (or two).

Concentrate on your recovery, not on your friend's. But set your boundaries. Decide that you will not let him hurt you anymore. No more enabling.

It's painful (I know), but you can do it.

Many :hug:.

[Iggo]

16. I've never been on your side of it.

Anything I told you would be fantasies of how I wish people would've handled my "problem."

And that ain't good, because the hell I went through totally worked for me.

I've heard good things in passing about Alanon over the years. Them's yer people.

[nadine_mn]

31. Its so hokey but I just want him to know he is loved and is a good person

because I don't think he sees that. I used to binge drink a lot in college and law school to dull the pain. Finally I got sick of being sick and didn't like who I was when I was drunk. But drinking is such a norm in our family, I don't think he even is aware of the problem. Or maybe he is...I don't know.

[Deep13]

17. Don't know that there is much you can do...

...except to point out what ought to be obvious. You can give him advice, but you can't make him take.

Ultimately, you have to avoid allowing his problem become your problem. If you are having trouble with this yourself, then you may want to talk to your relatives or a mental-health professional.

I do, however, suggest you steer clear of unpoven, religious organizations that will seek to draw you into the whole your-life-revolves-around-the-"program" thinking. I know it isn't a popular thing to say, but 12-Step groups do their best to squash individual thinking and encourage cult-like psychological dependence in their members. And there is no evidence that they work, just anecdotes from people who assume their success is because of AA, NA. Alanon or whatever. (Causation cannot be demonstrated from personal experience, but only by examining controlled groups statistically.) Whatever good they might do just from group support can be done better without their culture of self-imposed thought control. Especially since you are not the one with the drinking problem.

[Iggo]

19. Hmm...

I didn't realize that Alanon was another god-group. That's the reason NA and I parted ways. But I know for a fact that spending years hanging around people who weren't getting high helped me learn to live a life that didn't include getting high. Practice, practice, practice.

[TrogL]

20. You just can't leave it alone, can you?

You haven't a clue how the programs work but you bash away at them anyway.

[Deep13]

25. I know exactly how they "work" and I am not going to argue this again.

On the other hand I am not going to sit quiet while someone is given bad advice however well intentioned it is.

[Kajsa]

47. NO, you don't know how 12 step programs work.

Your posts prove it.

Let the person who is seeking help decide whether
or not 12 step programs are right for him/her.

[Phillycat]

30. He really, really can't.

[Seeking Serenity]

22. You're not a Scientologist by any chance, are you? (n/t)

[Deep13]

26. No, I object to all cults. nt

[Seeking Serenity]

28. Al-Anon is anything but a cult

We don't follow a singular, charismatic leader. We aren't a religion or sect with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader. We're just a group of people trying to make our lives better that have been harmed by someone else's addiction.

It isn't a religious program. Several members of my group are atheists. We may meet in a church, but that's generally because churches generally give us a place to meet and cheap rent.

[Deep13]

33. I've argued all of this the last time someone had an alcoholic relative on this forum.

Bill W. is the now deceased leader and his writings are beyond question. The very language of the 12-Steps demonstates that it is religious. How can references to god not be religious? Anyway, I did not say it IS a cult. I said it encourages cultish thinking.

[Seeking Serenity]

36. Well, if you've already argued your premise in other threads

I won't bother trying to dissuade you from your adopted position, as it seems clear that such would only be a meaningless use of bandwidth with little chance of success.

No :banghead: for me.

[nadine_mn]

27. I respectfully disagree

Many people have had success because of 12 step programs, it may not be for everyone - nothing is. I appreciate your input, and I will try many of the suggestions and make my own decisions. My problem is seeing him die in front of me and feeling helpless to stop it. I dont have to live with him, so it doesn't affect me like it would if he were a parent or partner.

I have the obnoxious and uncontrollable urge to fix people - whether they want me to or not.

[Deep13]

35. I wish you all the best. I hope your uncle stops his self-destruction.

Nevertheless, I would like to know what evidence exists to demonstrate who has been helped by the "program." A lack of drinking while one attends AA does not prove that AA caused the lack of drinking, especially when most of their members fail to even do that. A treatment for a psychiatric disorder has to be subjected to clinical testing in order to be approved for general use. That has never happened with the 12-steps.

[Critters2]

54. I got better once I STOPPED seeing a shrink and started a 12-step program.

My shrink behaved like a cult leader, with a group following and a clear sense that he was NOT to be questioned. I knew I needed to do this myself, though a support group would be nice. So, I went to EA. Smartest move I ever made. If I hadn't had the wherewithal to dump him and do things my own way, I'd still be dependent on him today--which would be fine with him. And you want research? This asshole teaches at a university, turning out more future cult leaders.

I'll take the 12 steps, thanks!

[Oeditpus Rex]

32. Attention, all the millions who've been helped by AA and its 'satellite' groups:

Reasons for your success cannot be explained by controlled statistical analysis, so resume drinking or being co-dependent again right away.

[Phillycat]

34. Woo hoo!

Jim Beam, here I come!

:D :eyes:

[Oeditpus Rex]

37. Your sobriety is all in your mind

You cultist, you.

:freak:

[Phillycat]

38. You're right, I did it ALL BY MYSELF.

Because that worked so well for me before. :rofl:

[Oeditpus Rex]

39. I know!

Someone called you an alcoholic, and you said, "I can stop any time I want."



And you did, right then and there, just to show 'em.



:thumbsup:

[Deep13]

40. That is such a logical fallacy it hardly needs to be explained, but here it goes.

You have fallen into the false dichotomy of AA thinking. It is not a choice between AA or drinking and nothing else. And AA's success rate is simply terrible. And what do they expect when they have never clinically tested their methods to see if they even work? They are unchanged since they were written by two Christian Fundamentalists in the 1920s. What other medical treatments are the same as 90 years ago? Pretty much nothing.

The fact that a drunk manages to stop drinking does not mean AA is entitled to the credit. It maybe that the social aspect of the group helped that person (something that is distinct from the "program"), it may be that the program had no effect or that he got sober despite the program. Put it another way, how is success from AA any different than success from ordinary, secular group therapy without all the meditation, prayer and mystical crap? Well, there is one way how they are different. Mental health professionals have to justifiy their methods and are accountable for malpractice.

[Oeditpus Rex]

44. In other words

it works, but that's not good enough. There must be statistical proof of why it works.

I credit ME for my sobriety; AA was just the facilitator. Could I have done it without AA? Maybe, but as there were members living on either side of me, it was the most readily available resource. It also didn't cost money that I didn't have and required no commitment except to the goal to stop drinking.

And it worked, so I'm satisfied.

By the way — the only prayer I ever heard at an AA meeting was the serenity prayer, and beginning it with "god" is optional. I have no idea what "meditation" and "mystical crap" you speak of.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

52. Are you an alcoholic?

If so, you know AA doesn't claim to have a monopoly on getting people sober. If you aren't then you don't know what you are talking about.

[KitchenWitch]

41. Kewl - I have always wanted to shoot heroin

:woohoo:

[Phillycat]

43. I'll bring syringes, and a shoe to stare at!

:party:

[Oeditpus Rex]

45. Better make it a boot

You might get some really good stuff.

[KitchenWitch]

46. AWESOME!

:toast:

[Iggo]

57. Excellent!

I've been looking for a reason to start up again, lo these many years! I'm gonna get me a fat sack!

Thank you, Lack Of Statistical Analysis! Thank you very much!

:woohoo:

[RetroLounge]

58. God, it must REALLY suck to be you...

:eyes:

RL

[x-g.o.p.er]

18. Until they want to help themselves,

there is very little you can do. I love my parents, but they're both alcoholics. Mom sobered up, Dad hasn't.

If you feel an intervention is necessary, tell your family how you feel and try to get some of them involved, if possible.

Like many other posters, I would highly encourage AlAnon.

Good luck to you--and your uncle--and you'll be in my thoughts and prayers.

[KitchenWitch]

42. I am also going to recommend Alanon

We have a saying in the rooms of 12 step meetings. "Take what you like and leave the rest". Meaning: if something does not work for you, it is OK. You do not have to do it.

The steps are SUGGESTIONS (this is directed at those that oppose getting help from any 12 step program). What works in my recovery may not work in yours.

:hug:

Your uncle may never find recovery, but you will better ways to handle your own reactions to his behavior, and thus, you will find peace.

[Kajsa]

48. I also suggest Al-Anon.

it will help you as family members are also
deeply affected by the ravages of alcoholism.

A family intervention would really help your uncle.
I hope they can come together to have one.

Meanwhile, take care of yourself.
Get the support you need.
Al-Anon is a good first step.

:hug:

[graywarrior]

49. Yep, Al-Anon.

You didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it.
Al-Anon will help you learn what you are dealing with.

[leftofthedial]

50. it's up to him

but tell him he has a problem

be prepared for him to not take it well and to be angry with you

I've never seen success until the person believes they have a problem and gets help themselves.

[Vinca]

51. Your poor uncle is badly in need of help you probably can't give.

It sounds like your entire family has enabled him forever - probably because they don't know what else to do. You're brave to want to be the one to finally confront him and you never know - that might be all it takes for him to make a move in the right direction. The bottom line is that it has to be his choice and his time. I went through this with my brother and the most difficult thing to do is to slam down the phone or lock the door when you've given them an ultimatum. It took my brother a couple of rehab stints, but he finally conquered it and has been sober (and quite successful) for decades. Good luck - to you and to him.

[Critters2]

55. I always refer parishioners in such situations to Al-Anon.

They've had good results.

[elleng]

56. nadine and all,

I'm glad to see the discussion about this difficult matter; as we can see, there are several strongly held belief on the matter.

nadine, pm me anytime, if you'd like.

Peace

[Turbineguy]

59. My friend was a drunk

In fact our friendship was centered around drinking. He however was going off the deep end. We stopped inviting him over. One day I decided to risk him never speaking to me again and wrote him a letter about the drinking. When I came back from a trip I found out he was in detox. Later he told me how he quit drinking. He just got up one morning at his usual time, 11 am, went to the fridge for a beer, decided he'd had enough and poured it down the sink and called the hospital. They were there in a flash.

That was 22 years ago, this month. He's been sober for 22 years.

We are the best of friends. Better than during his drinking days. He never mentioned the letter. Did it help? Who cares.

For me it was taking the risk.

I don't know if any of this helps.