Heard on Chris Matthews tonight that Shrub now blames FDR...

[whistle]

...and Winston Churchill for the spread of Soviet Communism following WWII in a speech he gave in Georgia Republic (former soviet state). This guy wants to dredge up all the old shit from 60 years ago and just get everyone shooting at each other. George W. Bush is a total dip-shit diplomat.

[Tux]

1. Let's see

3 nations went through a war on Germany. One the other 2 didn't like but needed help. Tensions existed over Germany's fate and they gave in so war wouldn't break out again. Yeah, it's wrong but hey, who would piss an ally that helped fuck up Hitler's army in the East?

[AlmightyTallest]

19. Also, war with Russia

BAD idea. Those Russian winters have never been kind to invading armies.

I would like to think this is all Bush's complete lack of any intelligence or sense of history what-so-ever, however it's far more likely a deliberately engineered attack on one of the most popular Democratic Presidents ever. I think there are many in the Republican party who are still angry about FDR.

[stepnw1f]

2. Georgie Needs a Straight Jacket

just like every right-wing nut bag out there, including the freepers reading my post. Why?

[Democrats_win]

3. how dare that failed prick bush criticize our most successful President

[applegrove]

4. And Americans would not even intervene to save the 'old Europe'

from Hitler. It took two years and an attack from Japan before America, the people, said okay - let's save them from fascism.

FDR worked long and hard to get American into a war he had no way of joining until it would be approved by congress.

So why would anyone expect them to sign up to save all of eastern Europe before it had been attacked?

Americans were not into that. They were isolationists.

Bush is a cherry - picker.

Another tool of the sociopaths.

[slor]

5. The Russians lost 80,000 men and...

275,000 wounded or missing, in the Battle of Berlin alone. Is the monkey suggesting we should have taken those losses? Oh yeah, I forgot, as long as they were not involved, those numbers are paltry.

[hector459]

27. 23 million "Russians" lost their lives....

We just don't get it. Russia had every right to be paranoid after WWII. Just as much right as the Jews who suffered under Hitler.. We were all in it together and only a dip-stick like Bush and the Republicans would want to begin to BLAME allies and Democrats for anything that happened afterwards. Remember, these are the folks who BLAME FDR for Social Security and who wished it never happened.

[whistle]

28. 23 million was almost 1 in 8 Russians at that time....

...there was hardly a single family which had not been affected by the Nazi holocaust against the Russian people. Whole communities were slaughtered by the Germans and the German siege against Stalingrad (now known as Volgograd) from August 1943 until February 1943 when thousands of Russian soldiers fought to hold off the German attacks and tens of thousands of residents in the surrounded city starved.

<snip>
"We think of the great battle on the Volga without
hatred or malice. However, we consider Stalingrad to
be a lesson from the past which, unfortunately, must be
remembered.
Should that war be recalled? Some think not, but I
don't agree. That war must be recalled until the time
when mankind will say: "we don't want war and will do
everything possible to prevent it so that never again
will there be war on this earth".
There will be a day when we shall stop recalling the
war and say: it was the last - not because we should
like to believe it is so, but because we shall know it
is so.

Text by the Soviet writer Konstantin Simonov.

<link> http://www.stalingrad-info.com/

[slor]

35. The point I am making is...

that the eastern front was very bloody, even in the closing days. Is the chimp suggesting that we should have driven our Sherman tanks into Berlin? It would have been very costly, fighting kids and grandparents running around with panzerfausts, and fanatical SS soldiers, knowing that the end of their world was near. And let us not forget to mention the risk of getting involved in a war with Russia. Would any American soldier, lucky enough to be alive after just beating the Nazis, have been gung ho about immediately going into battle with a battle hardened and larger Russian military. bush has shown, once again, that he is an idiot, and I am disgusted that more historians are not denouncing that fucker.

[AlGore-08.com]

6. Earth to Smirk!! FDR passed away during WWII!

So even if the US President was somehow responsible for the spread of communism the responsible party would have been TRUMAN, not FDR.

Sheesh! What a maroon!

[sakabatou]

9. And Churchill did last too long afterwords

Or at least didn't have any political power.

[NewJeffCT]

7. not a bright move, George

FDR is still one of the most popular presidents ever and Churchill is probably the most respected prime minister of the UK here in the US for his work during WW2.

[Inland]

8. Same as the speech in Latvia, but the MSM skips the implication

that Bush would have, in the service of liberty and freedom, committed the US to another war against the country that the Nazis couldn't beat either. Our victory in the cold war didn't kill nearly enough Americans, Soviets and east europeans for his bloody, end of the world, call fire down from heaven and cleanse the earth of sinful man world view.

Bush isn't a pussy like that FDR. He's a real man who really loves freedom. After all, what did FDR ever do for freedom? Nothing!

[artfan]

10. Well.....

to a certain extent the spread of communism had been blamed on some decisions FDR made at the end of his life/term. Historians have argued that because of failing health he was not thinking clearly and did not see the danger of the Soviets. Personally I feel that 20/20 hindsite is easy to come by the US was tired of war and pushing the Soviets was not popular at home.

[mourningdove92]

11. Its been obvious lately that it is imperative to the

Right Wing to demonize FDR.

They really really really want to get their hands on the Social Security money.

[LandOLincoln]

22. You kidding? They've already SPENT the Social Security money

and they don't want to pay it back.

[whistle]

12. If anyone can find that speech Bush gave, please post link

[LostInAnomie]

13. I made a thread about that a couple days ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3617171&mesg_id=3617171

Once again he is revising history to fit his warped ideology. What did he expect the US to do? Did he want FDR to put the war in the Pacific Theater on hold to invade our former ally's country and kill a few million more on each side. Neither the US nor Britain would have been prepared to fight the "fight to the last man", "scorched earth" war that would have resulted.

What would * care though, only the poor would have went, and his daddy was already out of the military.

[n2mark]

15. Just another way to demean

the Democratic party. He knows Dems have a high regard for FDR. Of course shrub does not like FDR. Shrub or should we call him Rove? is just baiting his base.

[whistle]

16. Ok, so he said that in Latvia last weekend and I guess is ....

...spreading it around in the other former Soviet Republic states. But, what's this crap about Putin being his best buddy. He's sticking his thumb in Putin's eye. Bush's "bring 'em on!" bravado.

[sandnsea]

14. They rewrote Vietnam

Now they want to continue the rewriting clear back to FDR. Erase any notion of goodness coming from the Democratic Party at all, complete the characterization started with FDR, that Democrats are weak-kneed communist sympathizers.

[Vickers]

17. Hey George, let's talk about the Pacific theater where your dad ditched

a plane with crewmembers aboard, AND DIDN'T TELL THEM HE WAS GOING TO DO IT.

Nice going, "hero."

:eyes:

[whistle]

29. That entire family seems to live by one jaded rule.....

...."look out for yourself and screw the other person!" Prescott, George I and all four of the sons have all applied that rule. Now wonder Barbara (Grammy Babs) Bush adopted William Jefferson Clinton as her favorite son.

[Cha]

18. Shutup monkeyboy...you aren't worthy

to shine FDR's boots if he were still with us.

How do you think history is going to treat you compared to FDR?

[paparush]

20. History will be completely rewritten

by the Repug Reich.

Nixon, Reagan, Bush I, and Shrub will be given credit for discovering fire, inventing the Polio vaccine, and for surgically tatooing chapters from Leviticus on the foreheads of every child born after 2006.

[Cha]

21. It seems that way now..but you

never know when truth is going to make a bright and shining appearance.

[Disturbed]

24. W is an arrogant fool.

We all know it and so does the world. Putin is laughing at this fool while we in Amerika cringe.

[IChing]

23. Arthur Schlesinger Jr. Yalta delusions.

The Yalta conference in February 1945 produced, according to President Bush, "one of the greatest wrongs of history." The Yalta agreements "followed in the unjust tradition of Munich and the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.…Once again, when powerful governments negotiated, the freedom of small nations was somehow expendable."

The American president is under the delusion that tougher diplomacy might have preserved the freedom of small East European nations. He forgets the presence of the Red Army. No conceivable diplomacy could have saved Eastern Europe from Soviet occupation. And military action against the Soviet Union was inconceivable so long as the Pacific War was still going on. Our military planners, in order to reduce American casualties, counted on the Red Army to enter the war against Japan . At Yalta Stalin promised a firm date in August. And in February the atom bomb seemed a fantasy dreamed up by nuclear physicists.

As for Eastern Europe, Stalin "held all the cards" in the words of Charles E. Bohlen, the Russian expert. But FDR managed to extract an astonishing document – the Declaration on Liberated Europe, an eloquent affirmation of "the right of all people to choose the form of government under which they will live." Molotov warned Stalin against signing it, but he signed it anyway. It was a grave diplomatic blunder. In order to consolidate Soviet control, Stalin had to break the Yalta agreements – which therefore could not have been in his favor.

The Declaration stands as the refutation of the myth, given new currency by the president of the United States , that Yalta caused or ratified the division of Europe . It was the deployment of armies, not negotiating concessions, that caused the division of Europe.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/2005/05/yalta-delusions.html

[whistle]

31. Exactly and FDR wrote Stalin before FDR's death warning him...

...against any attempts to impose government styles on the occupied countries. Had FDR survived possibly to the end of his fourth term, I believe history would have shown a much different sequence of events unfold in Eastern Europe.

The neo-conservatives using George Bush as their puppet mouth can rewrite history all they wish. However, people who were around then know what really happened. Scholars like Arthur Schlesinger Jr. must continue to share the truth about the events of that time. Only in that way can the rest of us be able to overcome the distortions and delusions of those little people with selfish ambitions and relentless quest for power. So, no matter what the cost to truth and reality may be by people like George W. Bush, we can counter and neutralize those efforts by knowing and being aware of the truth.

[Crunchy Frog]

25. It's part of the neocon strategy for destroying FDR's legacy.

I believe that it's very calculated and its purpose is to discredit FDR and by extension, the entire structure of the New Deal. They don't just want to get rid of social programs, they want to destroy the very foundation on which social programs are built.

It's not enough for them that they destroy the Democratic party in the present. They want to completely discredit the entire legacy of the Democratic party.

[Virginian]

26. And Reagan is responsible for the rise of the Taliban

He backed them against the evil Russian Empire. When the Russians went home, they, like an autoimmune disease, started to eat their own (to oppress the people of Afghanistan) and to train al Qaeda to bite the hand that fed them.
With that logic, 9/11 is Reagan's fault.

Take THAT, Neo-cons, wherever you are!


I feel so much better now that I got that out.

[Mark E. Smith]

30. One Of The Biggest Difference Between FDR & Shrubbie?

FDR won his war.

[whistle]

34. FDR was a leader who chose men and woman of integrity....

...and ability regardless of their political differences with his. I know that FDR was very human and could carry a grudge, but he was the person who put Dwight Eisenhower in charge in Europe and MacArthur in the Pacific and had General Marshall prepared with a plan to rebuild Europe in the peace which followed.

The model for post Iraq conflict that George W. Bush seems to be using resembles that of the Stalin post war doctrine than anything used by the allies to rebuild Europe after WW-II, IMHO.

[Skidmore]

32. Wasn't he trying to play Roosevelt and Churchill on TeeVee

during the 2004 campaign?

[Bridget Burke]

33. When Hungary rebelled against the Soviets in 1956,

We had a Republican president. Did he rush to the defense of the freedom fighters?

No. We did take in some refugees.

[whistle]

36. That's correct, the republicans wanted the cold war tensions....

...to remain in place because it was good for business. The policies of Eisenhower and Richard Nixon (who was lurking in the shadows) played right into the tensions and threats to the new Kennedy administration that played out in the failed Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba and the Cuban missile crisis, Kennedy's murder and the Vietnam War. There is plenty of blame on all political sides of both parties, the republicans and the democrats.

[Jose Diablo]

37. All this FDR stuff shrub is spouting is really about Social Security

It's just about time for the idiot son to return home and dance with those that bought him.

He and his buds are about to learn an important lesson, let the games begin.

[OzarkDem]

38. Bingo!

Its a back door means of discrediting the plan.

I guess * would have preferred it if Hitler stayed in control of eastern Europe.