The country is right of center

[DainBramaged]

I have heard this spoken by Right-wing pundits and talking heads so many times since the election my head is spinning. Right of center my ass, this meme is not being repudiated by the MSM, and not even our own pundits are contradicting this propaganda. It's time we fought back, and reminded our pundits to repeat, America has become a LEFT OF CENTER country, otherwise how do you explain the decimation of the RNC this past election? When you call into talk shows, bring this up first, we are a Left of Center Country, take no prisoners, loud and clear. When you send email or letter, make this your first sentence.



Don't let them get ahead on this, the lemmings will believe it.

[ryanmuegge]

1. The government is right of center, but the people are not anymore.

Both parties are right-wing.

[cali]

2. Would that it were so simple. it's not. this country is neither right of center or

left of center. it's a regional and issue matter. On some issues this country is right of center and on some issues it's left of center. Some regions and states are right of center. others are left of center.

[DainBramaged]

4. So confusing the issue is the way to go?

[cali]

7. So being accurate and actually looking at the country is "confusing

the issue"? Yikes.

[DainBramaged]

8. Whatever........

[Motown_Johnny]

3. the electoral collage, and the way representation is allocated in our system skews things to appear

as if we are a right of center country, we aren't.

The majority of our population is left of center.

[Overseas]

5. Corporate media has pushed the national discourse to the right.

The public is definitely to the left of what they call the center.

[ellenfl]

6. i loved when dr dean shut down the rnc head the day after the

election when they both appeared at the press club. apparently the attending press were not paying attention then either.

ellen fl

[cleveramerican]

9. the far right and left will both be disappointed by Obama

He promised to reach out to the republicans and take incremental, sensible steps the can be agreed upon.
I believe him, I think he is absolutely sincere about this.

I hope he can resist the urge to follow W's path and decide he doesn't "need" the other party and just piss in their faces.



Any Democrat who seeks revenge for the past will be let down without apology.

[maxsolomon]

13. again, WHAT FAR LEFT?

the SWP? Noam Chomsky? Anarchists in Eugene? there hasn't been a "far left" in america since Eugene Debs was imprisoned. not even during HUAC was there a "far left".

i'm fully prepared to be disappointed by Obama's tenure, but i'm not prepared to accept this demonstrably false construction.

[lelgt60]

46. Is there a commonly accepted dividing line between Left and Far Left? n/t

[ieoeja]

10. It is a self-identification issue.

There was some PUMA site thread once where everyone took one of those online tests. Everybody at the site called the test flawed because it kept coming up Liberal.

Polls show about 25% of the country self-identified as Liberal and about 40% Conservative. The problem is that, like the PUMAs, a lot of those Conservatives are extremely Liberal, but believe the word "liberal" means something else entirely.

Another problem with that poll is that you can be a Conservative Liberal (or Liberal Conservative). So it starts off with a bullshit premise to begin with.

[Bill McBlueState]

11. What does "center" even mean?

The terms "left of center" and "right of center" suggest that there's some well-defined center out there. I don't think there is.

[Essene]

16. Yes and No

I agree that it's somewhat "relative" when talking strictly in terms of an ideological spectrum, because USA's left is fairly conservative by world standards.

On the other hand, i think "center" implies a fairly objective notion about non-partisan common ground... and areas of compromise. It implies the kinds of areas and issues where pragmatists on both sides can problem solve together.

The "center" wants immigration reform.
The "center" wants energy independence.
The "center" wants school choice and accountability.
The "center" wants fiscally sound health care reform.
The "center" wants limited federal government.
The "center" believes in free trade.
The "center" wants strong national security.
Etc.

What those different things mean is open to debate, but the point is that "the center" is that non-partisan common ground on today's issues.

[yellowcanine]

12. This is the same crowd that blathered for years that "elections have consequences" and

therefore the Senate should have UPPERDOWNVOTES on Bush judge nominations.

[DainBramaged]

14. You are right, the Reich is just trying to save face

I just heard it again a little while ago on MSNBC from a RNC mouthpiece. They are trying to begin the propaganda war without retort.

[Essene]

15. Sorry.... but this nation IS still right-of-center... and here's the data to prove it

Everybody LOVES talking about the massive "ideological swing" to the left... and this image best defines that impression.



But here's the truth folks on the left don't seem to want to swallow right now. There were very few areas where we saw more than a 15% shift in the populace... and most of the shifting was by independents who simply leaned FROM Bush and the GOP over the last 2 years.

Here's 2008 compared to 1992.

LOOK AT THAT LONG AND HARD

There was undeniably a swing left, but it was a swing back to the center-right "middle"... by independents. I call this a MOOD SWING, based on frustration with the Bush admin. I think there is some shifting in terms of ideology, but it's not settled yet. How the Dems handle themselves in the next 2 years will very much determine how this plays out and I wouldn't assume we've seen a huge movement to the left whatsoever.

This is why many are arguing that Obama and the Dems need to govern from the middle. They need to RECLAIM THE MIDDLE, before they can expect the nation to really shift left in any meaningful way.

[DainBramaged]

17. Your trend in party identification nullifies your lower map

so, are you for the center-right? I looked long and hard, and anyone familiar with colorforms can make a map say anything they want. By the way, your source please.

[Essene]

18. Let me explain what I see there...

We've been leaning right as a nation since the Reagan years and that implies a lot of basic assumptions, identity politics and ideological entanglements.

I'd like to see Obama lay claim to the center, and help america get comfortable with being progressive. That will take more than 1 election. It will require Obama and the Dems to lead from the center, but embracing progressive ideas in doing so. In other words, I'd like to see them embrace moderate republicans and fiscal conservatives when applicable... and to strongly lean progressive on social issues when applicable.

The source for the "shift" maps is the NY Times. The party identifier chart is Pew (although there is newer data out there).

In 1992, we saw the beginning of the end of the Reagan era conservative coalition, which dramatically had shifted our politics to the right and around a right-center identity. There were many democrats who aligned with Reagan.

I think that struggle continued between 1992 and 1996, with the 1994 "republican revolution." On the GOP side we saw the crafting of a new coalition in 1994 around culture wars, around social conservative ideas rather than a more inclusive fiscal conservatism. I think we've been in a holding pattern in political boundaries since 1996-2000.

I think we've seen the 1994 conservative coalition collapse since 2006... less than we've seen a major ideological shift. That's why i think we've seen so many people leaving the GOP to become independents (not democrats).

That's how i see it.

When i look at the 2008 county breakdown compared to 1992, we can see how there remains a very large chunk that's either the same or RED. In other words, we're still right of 1992... which was still


Look this map showing the ratios of voting by county in 1992... notice all that blue and a lot of "white area."


Now compare it to 2004. Notice how much more red there is and how there's less "white area."


Now notice the LACK of real change in 2008... but moreso a matter of intensity. In other words, we're still mostly stuck in the same pattern we've seen for 8 years... although many jumped ship from the GOP to become independents... and many more came out in support for the Dems in general. That's not the same as an ideological shift, in my view.

[DainBramaged]

19. Source please, I asked the last time

[Essene]

20. it's there... read it =D

[ChimpersMcSmirkers]

54. Yeah, nice counter argument. Plus a map doesn't tell the picture in the first place.

It only shows that rural areas got more conservative, while urban/suburban got more liberal since '92. It doesn't show the amounts. Rural areas = large areas with few people...

Heres a cartogram of 2008 county results with population factored in:

[rockymountaindem]

22. Looking at the latter map "long and hard" belies your point

The places that have turned more blue are the population centers around the Great Lakes as well as in most of the states. Denver, central NM, northern VA, Philly, Seattle, Miami, Portland, St. Louis, Kansas City, Memphis, Detroit (and central MI) and virtually all of California and New England are bluer than before. The places that are more red than before amount essentially to that silly map that the RW proffered in 2000 to show how Bush had really "won" the election despite losing the popular vote to Gore. The response to that 1992-2008 comparison is the same to that Bush/Gore county map: dirt doesn't vote.

[Essene]

26. It's a change in intensity & independents abandoning the GOP

Mccain managed to get 58 million votes, however we spin it. Those maps don't represent "dirt."

There was not a lot of "flipping" going on at all. Let's be objective. I don't deny that we saw strong movement away from the GOP since 2006, esp in the mid-west, but I'm being realistic. It felt like a massive mandate for the left on Nov 4th, but when I looked at the data I saw it more as a shift to the middle (from right to left, but still to the middle).

It's not a major ideological shift like we saw in 1992 or 2000, I'm afraid. I wish it was. I think the GOP coalition has broken down and I hope we see a bigger shift in 2012 to solidify new boundaries on par with 1984.

If you compare the 2004 and 2008 "purple america" maps, I hope you'll admit it's NOT that dramatic. The blues intensified, moreso than the reds flipped. I'm sayin there was very little flipping. There were few areas with a >15% shift.

And when we look at 2008 vs 1992... we see that the USA is still right of where it was in 1992 (which is not comforting).

1984

1988

1992

1996

2000

2004

2008

[DainBramaged]

35. Let's try this another way, who made these maps or where did you get them from

don't point me to your blog, I want to know the real source. Since you profile gives me no reason to suspect you aren't one of us (ha) I'd like facts not more maps.

[Essene]

42. How about... you try READING what you respond to?

I told you... NY Times & Pew.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/773/fewer-voters-identify-as-republicans
http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/results/president/map.html

You've posted a half dozen times, demanding i give sources... making snide, pretentious comments. I can see you've simply made up your mind about this issue and simply want to discredit the "sources." Fine, disagree... but at least READ what you respond to.

All i am saying is that Obama won with 53% and not much of america actually "flipped" significantly. I think we're in the midst of a process, but we could easily see another 1994 backlash if the Dems overplay their sense of ideological mandate. There is undeniably a mandate for change, but i think this is a call for a RETURN to the center, to pragmatics, to compromise... not clearly one for a progressive agenda per se.

We're still in very reactionary times and i do NOT think america is "progressive." It may be moving that way... but it will take time and a few more elections. I can see a 8-16 year run if the Dems stay focused on pragmatic center-left action rather than trying to go full ideological warfare mode.

The best "purple america" maps come from http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/2008/

[ProSense]

24. You're completely

wrong

[Essene]

27. what the media matters report finds doesnt really contradict what im saying, but...

then again i dont get the sense you've read what im saying...

If you buy into the way the right-wing defines left/right, tben you might see common sense understanding about government as saying we're progressive.

I don't.

I think it indicates that the Reagan era and general GOP rhetoric flies in the face of common sense, and that we're seeing their coalition finally collapse. That's a good thing. But it's far from saying america is progressive.

I think we're right in the middle of a big shift... but we're not there yet.

[ProSense]

28. I read what you said: "nation IS still right-of-center." Media Matters report says that's a myth.

So if you're saying the same thing, it's not obvious.

[Essene]

29. Americans dont buy into the extreme GOP rhetoric of the last 20 years... so?

That's arguably just common sense, not a progressive position.

That assumes the Right only holds onto the most extreme positions which is a misunderstanding. A good 3rd of the electorate remains "independent" and while they broke for the Dems this year, I dont remember seeing any figures showing that to be more than a 10-15% advantage.

I'm saying that the center is still center-right because the terms of our political rhetoric have been dragged far-right for 3 decades.

There is undeniably a rejection of Bush. There is also undeniably a rejection of laissez faire & trickle down insanity of the GOP's platform. I think americans, overall, lean progressive on social issues but still believe in limited government, free trade, etc. But those supports come with limits.

I see this election as a shift back to the middle... still "red" by 1992 standards... and hopefully the first stage of a wider swing to a center-left population.

[ProSense]

31. "That's arguably just common sense, not a progressive position." Sorry that's nonsense.

The nation is becoming more progressive. In fact, with 51 percent of voters saying government should do more, it's clear the country has moved left of center.

[Essene]

34. You seem to think "right" only means the far extreme.

If you honestly think 51% of Americans saying "government should do more" equates to "progressive" then you really need to get out more.

:)

I'm saying that just because moderates (including republicans) and independents reject the far-right and self-defeating non-sense... like trickle down economics, culture warfare nativism and laissez faire libertarian rheotirc... doesnt make them "progressive." The world is not so black and white. A 3rd of the nation remains solidly independent.

Dont get me wrong.

I think we're seeing the rise of progressive ideas again, but I'm saying the country is still caught up in 30 years of conservative rhetoric, issues and identity politics. That doesn't change overnight. Clinton did shake a lot of those politics up. I think we've seen a return to the "center" circa 1992... and we have a ways to go.

[ProSense]

36. If you don't, then you don't know what you're talking about. n/t

[paulk]

43. thanks for taking the time to make an argument

it's food for thought

and better than the "I'm right and you're wrong" style

employed by some here

[Essene]

44. we're best when we are critical of our own assumptions, as well

i didnt want to believe what i've been arguing.

i just looked at the data and it slapped me in the face, so i went around and realized that how nov 5 felt... may not be the full reality.

[DainBramaged]

39. Media-Matters poll proves you wrong, period.

[Shakespeare]

49. You don't include the most important data (and it's data which proves you wrong).

And that data is that when polled on individual issues, Americans fall overwhelmingly into the liberal/left category. The data on party identification is largely pointless, because the results are colored by the influence of rhetoric (i.e., for the last 30 years, liberal = bad).

So, yes, we are a left-leaning country.

[Essene]

57. "on individual issues, Americans fall overwhelmingly into the liberal/left category."

So, being against far-right policies makes people lefty? Picking A over B makes you a hardcore A advocate?

No, sir. It's not black/white. Obviously partisans dont see it this way... but a good 1/3rd of americans are INDEPENDENT.

Look at the map... that indicates we're still "red" or the same as most places in 1992.

We've shifted center. That center still remains center-right... although i think (hope) we continue shifting to the left.

[Shakespeare]

58. That map is IRRELEVANT, and I'm talking issues while you're talking labels.

Labels are meaningless. Issues are not.

My original point stands, but feel free to continue flogging that dead horse of yours.

[DainBramaged]

60. Some people can't see the forest for the trees

:hi:

[WinkyDink]

21. THANK YOU!!!!!!!! IT'S THE NEXT BIG LIE!!!!!!!

[Overseas]

23. Joshua Holland -- America is a Center-Left Country -- from Alternet

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/106276

Snip:
Reality: an Election Day poll by the Center for American Progress and the Campaign for America's Future asked whether Republicans had lost because they were too conservative or not conservative enough. By a twenty point margin, voters chose “too conservative”, including independents who agreed by a 21 point margin. Seven out of ten said they wanted the Republicans to work with Obama and “help him achieve his plans,” while fewer than a quarter of respondents thought the GOP should try to keep him from implementing a progressive agenda.

There's a lot more in the article that totally debunks the "center right" theory.

[Avalux]

25. Repukes say they lost the election because they couldn't communicate their message.

They claim that there is nothing wrong with the Republican party and what it stands for; the problem was in the delivery this election cycle; the candidate. They see no need to change their message.

[WinkyDink]

56. I.e., they couldn't LIE WELL ENOUGH this time.

[Burma Jones]

30. We just defined center

Obama IS the center......

[Essene]

32. He's laid claim to the center... and we must respect that stake

Some are disgusted by the idea of working with any the vile baby-eating Republicans.

Some are disgusted by the notion of governing from the center.

Obama has put down a stake on the center and hopes to redefine it on progressive terms. I hope he is very successful in this and gets 8 years to redefine politics (and intellectualism) in america. I'd love to look back on 8 years of an Obama Presidency knowing that he shifted the center left, made progressive ideas more palpable to the independents and also made intellectualism valued again.

[Burma Jones]

33. We are sympatico......

I really think this is more about competence than anything else.....

[DainBramaged]

37. Where are your maps from? The originator. Not your blog.

[Essene]

41. good grief...

How many times will you ask before stopping and reading?

I said the NY Times and Pew. You even noticed my blog but didnt notice they were listed there?

http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/results/president/map.html
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/773/fewer-voters-identify-as-republicans

For the best "purple maps" see this guy's site http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/2008/

[DainBramaged]

40. Hello, where is your information from?????

[DainBramaged]

38. And it's not just the mem, it's the Right telling us Obama has to govern from the Right

what bullshit. They are LOSERS, fucking LOSERS, they can have the crumbs, bullshit and a pox on them, Obama will govern any way he wants to.

[lelgt60]

45. It is still right of center. It's just the center moved left. n/t

[Essene]

47. moving... left

I think one problem in these kinds of discussions is that a lot of folks are different ages and have very different perspectives on what the spectrum actually is. Likewise, some see things in very black/white terms and not as a broad spectrum with many grey areas.

I think we've shifted left, but it's more like shifting back to the middle... a middle akin to the 1990s... which itself was still center-RIGHT, by many standards. I don't think the center has really shifted yet, although there is good reason to think it's starting.

If trickle down rhetoric is gone for good... if nativism has been permanently marginalized... if laissez faire bs is debunked... and if the purely ideological slogans about how "government is always bad" are put aside... and if the citizens generally feel like they have "say" in the government... then i think we can see 16 years of slow shifting of the center to the left.

[lelgt60]

48. getting a little dizzy here...what's nativism?

[Two Americas]

50. yes and no

Historically politics has always been about power and economics. In those areas, the general public is decidedly to the Left, more so than the Democratic party and the activist community, both of which are dominated by more upscale people who are socially liberal but economically conservative.

However, the right wing propagandists have succeeded in redefining politics along the so-called cultural war lines. By that measure, the public remains fairly conservative. I do believe, however, that we could prevail on those issues within a context of fighting for equality and justice through a strong pro-Labor movement, thr0ough advocacy for the have-nots, people over profits, workers over the moneychangers and speculators and manipulators.

So, on true political issues, the people are far to the Left of the Democratic party and the activist community. On culture war issues, the people are moderate to conservative, but could fairly effortlessly be brought around on those issues in the proper political context. Fighting the cultural war issues in a vacuum, with no comprehensive economic program in opposition to the right wing "free market" Reaganomics program, will be met with resistance. That is the only sense in which the public is "right of center."

[harun]

51. I disagree with you often but not this time, great post (n/t)

[TheKentuckian]

52. I'd agree that the country is still effectively center right

I think we are starting to wake up and wiping the sleep out of our eyes from the snoozing of consciousness that was the Reagan Revolution. Center/right is several ticks to the left of the hard right that we've been for the better part of the last forty years.
Still, the maybe the biggest chunk of people define themselves as conservatives, the smallest self identify as liberal, and an ever growing group that sees themselves as moderates/independent.

I don't get what people are getting testy about when these kind of statements are made. Its an honest assessment of where we are and the first rule of going anywhere is to know where you are.
We need to work hard to educate people and to remove the stigma from the word liberal that we weakly allowed the Reich to paint as something that is actually wrong, weak, or at best stupid.

I'll agree that many people are more liberal than they claim and most of them have co-opted conservative to mean something very different than it is. I think a lot of folks think conservative means something like a mix of patriotic and rational and have divorced conservative and liberal from general outlooks. We let ourselves get hosed on the framing and the GOP has convinced many people that conservative puts you center of the spectrum and liberal is so far to the left that you are in danger of falling off the map.

Its our mission to move the country back to the left and to restore rational framing of the definitions. We have a real chance to swing the pendulum back but pretending that its already been done is foolish.

[DainBramaged]

59. Then why in the latest polls nearly 70% of the people

expect the controlling of all three branches of the government by Dems is a good thing, and only 38% disagree?

[AtomicKitten]

53. they cling to that tired meme like their blankie

[Larry in KC]

55. Isn't that like Lake Wobegon, where "all of the children are above average"?

[Whoa20]

61. we are very geographically polarized,

as Obama won huge in the West Coast, the East Coast, and the great lake states, McCain won huge in Appalachia, the South, and the plains/upper rockies. This election may have been just a referendum on Bush, or an actual shift. 2012 may hold the answer, but we'll have to look even farther to see if we've changed, or stayed relatively the same. Prop 8's passage in CA definitely emboldened them. Even the most liberal state which voted Obama 60-40 didn't even accept gay marriage, while Spain, and much of western Europe has.