What Happens When You Vote Against TABOR?

[mile53]

Blue ribbon panel embraces taxes, mandates, to expand health care
By Glenn Adams, Associated Press Writer | December 19, 2006

AUGUSTA, Maine --Elected officials should consider increases in a variety of state taxes as they look for ways to make health insurance available to more Mainers, a panel that's been studying the issue for several months voted Tuesday.

The Blue Ribbon Commission on Dirigo Health also voted to ask the governor's office to look into the idea of creating a system of mandated employer group coverage for workers, and requiring individuals above certain income levels to get coverage for themselves.

The commission's recommendations to fund Maine's Dirigo Health program and expand health coverage to the 130,000 Mainers who lack insurance will be bound in a report and submitted to Gov. John Baldacci, who created the panel earlier this year.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/maine/articles/2006/12/19/blue_ribbon_panel_embraces_taxes_mandates_to_expand_health_care?mode=PF

[MaineDem]

1. What does this have to do with a vote against TABOR?

Enlighten us, please.

[luckyleftyme2]

4. TABOR WAS JUSTLY LAID TO REST

TABOR WAS LAID TO REST;THE REASON THE 2/3 VOTE BY THE GOVERNING ELECTED BEFORE THE PEOPLE COULD VOTE ON IT.
A REPUKE PLAN TO CONTROL SPENDING.=LIKE HALLIBURTON,LIKE THE MEDICARE DRUG PROGRAM,LIKE THE RUNAWAY HEALTH-CARE COSTS? NO THANKS ONE VOTE ONE MAN HAS WORKED PRETTY GOOD SO FAR.
HOW MANY OF THOSE WALL STREET BONUSES DID YOU GET? 40 MILLION =CAN ONLY HAPPEN WHEN YOU HAVE
CROOKS IN OFFICE!

[MaineDem]

5. Excuse me?

And why are you "yelling"?

I'm looking for the original poster to explain his OP.

[high density]

2. See what happens when you see TAXES and immediately go nuts?

I see taxes on businesses being proposed and cigarette taxes going up. Why should I care? I'm not saying Dirigo Health is a great thing, but I'm glad to see they're trying to make fixes to it. This proposal wouldn't even affect my employer since I'm already offered health insurance (though I do think we are paying for Dirigo costs in our health insurance premiums.) I pay more for health insurance than I do state income tax every two weeks.

[luckyleftyme2]

3. WHAT HAPPENS WHEN U VOTE AGAINST NATIONAL HEALTH CARE

ALL THE REPUKES MOVE THEIR BUSINESSES OVER SEAS! WAL-MART ONE OF THE BIGGEST CONTRIBUTORS TO THE SO CALLED (JOKE) CONSERVATIVE PARTY IS BUILDING FACTORIES IN CHINA.
WHILE WE AMERICANS (48 MILLION) WITH OUT INSURANCE AND ANOTHER 50 MILLION UNDER INSURED PAY MORE THAN 25% MORE PER CAPITA FOR HEALTH INS. MORE THAN DOUBLE WHAT OUR NEIGHBORS PAY FOR PERSCRIPTION
DRUGS.
SO CANADIANS PAY 25% LESS PER CAPITA FOR HEALTH CARE AND ALL THEIR POPULATION IS INSURED.
OF COURSE THE DUMMIES WHO BELIEVE ANYTHING THE REPUKES PRINT VOTE AGAINST NATIONAL HEALTH CARE.
AND WHY DO THE BIG BOYS WANT TO KEEP IT PRIVATE;BECAUSE THE RIP OFF IS ASTRONOMICAL!
SO IN MAINE THEY USE DIRIGO TO KEEP THE DUMMIES SQUABLING WHILE ANTHEM CONTINUES TO MAKE BILLIONS.
ASK A CANADIAN NEIGHBOR ABOUT OUR HEALTH CARE: ANS. IT SUCKS TO BE YOU!!
YA VOTE REPUKE TO STAY IN BONDAGE!

[Shorebound]

6. Why?

"I see taxes on businesses being proposed and cigarette taxes going up. Why should I care?"

Because when business expenses rise, the prices they charge for their goods and services rise. There's not some magic bank account that business owners dip into to pay for new taxes and fees. They have to pass the costs along to their customers -- you and me. IIRC the plan includes tax increases on beer, too! Will they stop at nothing? :) Plus soda, snacks, and wine.

As for what you pay for health insurance, there are a lot of reasons why Mainers pay more than almost every other state, starting with guaranteed issue and community ratings, hospital costs, drug fees, etc.

And I'm wondering about the TABOR connection too, unless the original poster is trying to say that TABOR would have blocked the proposed tax increases. Perhaps s/he could explain?

[luckyleftyme2]

9. FOR THE SAME REASON

OUR HEALTH CARE PROGRAM IS CORRUPTED BY CROOKED BIG BUSSINESS LEADERS. BUSINESS HAS ALREADY PROVED THEY ARE INCAPABLE OF SUSTAINING AN AFFORDABLE HEALTH-CARE INS.
SINCE YOU EVIDENTLY WANT TO CONTINUE TO KEEP RAISING HEALTH CARE COSTS, YOU MUST BE ONE OF THOSE
WHO EITHER HAVE SOME ONE ELSE PAYING YOURS OR YOU THINK CORRUPTION IS OK!
WE'RE TALKING ONE OF THE BIGGEST RIP=OFFS OF THE CENTURY AND PEOPLE ARE DYING BECAUSE WE CAN'T GET IT CHANGED.

[Shorebound]

12. Luckless

Why do you always shout? Do you think it gives your words more importance? There's a key on your keyboard, far left, middle row. It says "caps lock." Please disconnect it. People will be more likely to talk with you if you do.

[jpak]

7. TABOR sucks ass - get over it

RW horseshit

[crim son]

8. I heard that on NPR yesterday

with very mixed feelings. If I'm going to pay more tax, I'm glad it's going to health care. But I don't want to pay any more. Mainers are already burdened far beyond what is reasonable. If TABOR wasn't the answer then what is? Or is everybody okay with the ridiculous increases in property taxes etc. every year?

[RBInMaine]

Universal Single Payer Healthcare is part of the answer.

"If not TABOR than what?" so you ask. First, Mainers do have a high AVERAGE overall tax burden, but remember that this is the AVERAGE, skewed in large part by our traditionally low overall income levels compared to cost of living in this state. However, our actual average tax burden per family in REAL DOLLARS is down around 35th in the nation. The problem is tax dollars compared to income level. The coastal LOCAL real estate marketeer-driven explosion in housing costs haven't helped! Average housing costs are WAY too high Maine compared to income levels. We are also a large state geographically compared to population with LOTS of infrastructure to take care of. We have ALWAYS been a relatively poor state with lots of elderly and low income folks, especially in rural Maine, who rely on social programs to survive. We have to pay a lot for energy here in the cold northeast, and we have lost tens of thousands of good jobs, as have many other states, due to awful trade agreements that have sent our factories to the third world (No one can blame Baldacci or Dems for that!!). You also have to look at inflation, etc. etc. What to do? MANY things, but universal single payer healthcare like Canada and MANY other advanced nations would help big time. Also: roll back the TONS of costly new education mandates; require annual zero-based local budgeting practices statewide; either find a way to cap property valuations for tax purposes or expand the circuit breaker program; take out the LD1 loopholes to hold local govts. more accountable and ensure LD1 provisions are enforced; look at a variety of tax re-structuring possibiities to reduce property taxes; take a good look both the Brookings and Maine Chamber of Commerce economic development recommendations to expand job growth; ... Quick-fix one-size-fits-all schemes like Palesky and TABOR designed by and for the greedy right-wing are WRONG and UNFAIR and FLAWED. It's a complex problem that will require a complex solution, but there are FAIR solutions that can work over time, and yes, our leaders and at all levels regardless of party do need to roll up their sleeves and get to work on solutions (although we must also remember that LD1, circuit breaker, homestead exemption, and other measures HAVE BEEN DONE, they deserve credit, and they need time to become fully accessed and implemented).

[RBInMaine]

10. Universal Single Payer Healthcare is part of the answer.

"If not TABOR than what?" so you ask. First, Mainers do have a high AVERAGE overall tax burden, but remember that this is the AVERAGE, skewed in large part by our traditionally low overall income levels compared to cost of living in this state. However, our actual average tax burden per family in REAL DOLLARS is down around 35th in the nation. The problem is tax dollars compared to income level. The coastal LOCAL real estate marketeer-driven explosion in housing costs haven't helped! Average housing costs are WAY too high Maine compared to income levels. We are also a large state geographically compared to population with LOTS of infrastructure to take care of. We have ALWAYS been a relatively poor state with lots of elderly and low income folks, especially in rural Maine, who rely on social programs to survive. We have to pay a lot for energy here in the cold northeast, and we have lost tens of thousands of good jobs, as have many other states, due to awful trade agreements that have sent our factories to the third world (No one can blame Baldacci or Dems for that!!). You also have to look at inflation, etc. etc. What to do? MANY things, but universal single payer healthcare like Canada and MANY other advanced nations would help big time. Also: roll back the TONS of costly new education mandates; require annual zero-based local budgeting practices statewide; either find a way to cap property valuations for tax purposes or expand the circuit breaker program; take out the LD1 loopholes to hold local govts. more accountable and ensure LD1 provisions are enforced; look at a variety of tax re-structuring possibiities to reduce property taxes; take a good look both the Brookings and Maine Chamber of Commerce economic development recommendations to expand job growth; ... Quick-fix one-size-fits-all schemes like Palesky and TABOR designed by and for the greedy right-wing are WRONG and UNFAIR and FLAWED. It's a complex problem that will require a complex solution, but there are FAIR solutions that can work over time, and yes, our leaders and at all levels regardless of party do need to roll up their sleeves and get to work on solutions (although we must also remember that LD1, circuit breaker, homestead exemption, and other measures HAVE BEEN DONE, they deserve credit, and they need time to become fully accessed and implemented).

[RBInMaine]

11. Universal Single Payer Healthcare is part of the answer.

"If not TABOR than what?" so you ask. First, Mainers do have a high AVERAGE overall tax burden, but remember that this is the AVERAGE, skewed in large part by our traditionally low overall income levels compared to cost of living in this state. However, our actual average tax burden per family in REAL DOLLARS is down around 35th in the nation. The problem is tax dollars compared to income level. The coastal LOCAL real estate marketeer-driven explosion in housing costs haven't helped! Average housing costs are WAY too high Maine compared to income levels. We are also a large state geographically compared to population with LOTS of infrastructure to take care of. We have ALWAYS been a relatively poor state with lots of elderly and low income folks, especially in rural Maine, who rely on social programs to survive. We have to pay a lot for energy here in the cold northeast, and we have lost tens of thousands of good jobs, as have many other states, due to awful trade agreements that have sent our factories to the third world (No one can blame Baldacci or Dems for that!!). You also have to look at inflation, etc. etc. What to do? MANY things, but universal single payer healthcare like Canada and MANY other advanced nations would help big time. Also: roll back the TONS of costly new education mandates; require annual zero-based local budgeting practices statewide; either find a way to cap property valuations for tax purposes or expand the circuit breaker program; take out the LD1 loopholes to hold local govts. more accountable and ensure LD1 provisions are enforced; look at a variety of tax re-structuring possibiities to reduce property taxes; take a good look both the Brookings and Maine Chamber of Commerce economic development recommendations to expand job growth; ... Quick-fix one-size-fits-all schemes like Palesky and TABOR designed by and for the greedy right-wing are WRONG and UNFAIR and FLAWED. It's a complex problem that will require a complex solution, but there are FAIR solutions that can work over time, and yes, our leaders and at all levels regardless of party do need to roll up their sleeves and get to work on solutions (although we must also remember that LD1, circuit breaker, homestead exemption, and other measures HAVE BEEN DONE, they deserve credit, and they need time to become fully accessed and implemented).

[Shorebound]

13. Taxes

> "If not TABOR than what?" so you ask. <

Who asks? Or is this a rhetorical question?

> First, Mainers do have a high AVERAGE overall tax burden, but remember that this is the AVERAGE, skewed in large part by our traditionally low overall income levels compared to cost of living in this state. However, our actual average tax burden per family in REAL DOLLARS is down around 35th in the nation. <

True, but unfortunately those taxes are paid from our REAL personal income in REAL DOLLARS, and our per capita personal income is about 30th in the nation. (http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank29.html) So with personal income within shouting distance of average, our tax burden is definitely above average.

> The problem is tax dollars compared to income level.<

Agreed. Too little income, too much tax dollars.

> The coastal LOCAL real estate marketeer-driven explosion in housing costs haven't helped! Average housing costs are WAY too high Maine compared to income levels. <

The explosion in housing costs is a function of supply and demand, and it's not limited to the coast. Prices are high because there are people willing and able to pay them. The "marketeers" (whoever they might be) wouldn't be able to sell at those prices otherwise. IOW, people are selling their homes for what the market will bear. Nothing more, certainly nothing less. If you can get Mainers to sell their homes for 1970s prices, more power to you. I'll be first in line to buy.

And I completely agree that increases in income have not kept pace with the increase in real estate values, but then that's also true in New York City.

> We are also a large state geographically compared to population with LOTS of infrastructure to take care of. We have ALWAYS been a relatively poor state with lots of elderly and low income folks, especially in rural Maine, who rely on social programs to survive. We have to pay a lot for energy here in the cold northeast, and we have lost tens of thousands of good jobs, as have many other states, due to awful trade agreements that have sent our factories to the third world (No one can blame Baldacci or Dems for that!!).<

The same can be said for North Dakota and Montana, yet their tax burdens are considerably less than ours. Your point?

> universal single payer healthcare like Canada and MANY other advanced nations would help big time. <

I'd be more than willing to consider that very seriously, but not at the state level. As you noted, "Canada and many other advanced NATIONS." (Emphasis mine.) Something like that MUST be nationwide. Maine simply does not have the wealth necessary to make it work BY OURSELVES. We're trying to do it with Dirigo and MaineCare and we're crippling ourselves financially as a result. This is the road Tennessee tried to travel a couple of years ago, and it almost bankrupted the state.

> roll back the TONS of costly new education mandates; require annual zero-based local budgeting practices statewide; <

Agree completely. I would expand your suggestion to include zero-based STATE budgeting practices as well. The Brookings Report caled Maine "administrationland" or something similar because of the high percentage of administrators to workers at all levels of government.

> either find a way to cap property valuations for tax purposes or expand the circuit breaker program; take out the LD1 loopholes to hold local govts. more accountable and ensure LD1 provisions are enforced; <

A property VALUE cap accomplishes nothing in terms of tax relief, because it doesn't limit the property tax RATE. It doesn't matter if my house is valued at half of "market value" if my city is taxing it at twice the current mill rate.

> Quick-fix one-size-fits-all schemes like Palesky and TABOR designed by and for the greedy right-wing are WRONG and UNFAIR and FLAWED.<

But the fact that they were even considered (and we may not have heard the last of TABOR if the rumblings I'm hearing at the grassroots are any indication) should tell us that the problem is serious, and the solution may be taken out of our hands unless we can respond with more than another round of smoke-and-mirror tax reform. The problem has always been (IMO) a term-limited legislature's inability to deal with something as controversial and complex as comprehensive tax reform. By the time a legislator has learned enough about the issue to be knowledgeable, s/he is out of office.

The Brookings report suggests forming an independent commission, like the BRAC panel that decides on military base closings, to draw up a comprehensive tax reform plan outside of the pressures of special interest groups and term limits. The plan gets a straight up-and-down vote in the legislature, just like the BRAC recommendations do in Congress. That's a possible solution. Revising the term limits law to lengthen terms to 10 or 12 years would also help IMO.

[luckyleftyme2]

14. IN CASE YOU HAVEN'T FIGURED IT OUT

Shorebound is anything but a democrat. look at the arguments he presents. right out of the right wing dogma.
Its been proven that raising the minimum wage increases trade. the simple reason is the more money in the poors hands the more they spend.
Shore bound is the guy at the local watering hole bitching about high taxes,and those gd demmy's
in malfunction junction(AUGUSTA)to you that want to be in the know.
HE'S THe guy that either works for the towns biggest employer or businessman. he's content if he's an employee cuz his daddy knew the right people and got him the job-or left him the business.
he buys a product for a dime and sells it for a dollar. but crys like hell if you get a ten dollar tax abatement. you know the type.
His definition of national health care shows you he's all set so to heck with the rest.
only a fool can defend health-care costs anywhere in the nation.

[Shorebound]

15. Thank you, Luckless.

for turning off the CAPS key. Making unfounded and untrue accusations doesn't advance your argument. In fact, I'm hard-pressed to figure out what your argument is. If you want to address the recommendations of the Brookings Institute report, I'm here for you. Brookings, BTW, is a well-known liberal think tank, so consider well before you speak.

BTW, my father was a farmer and a millworker and my mother an immigrant, and I put myself through college. If you want to write fiction, I can recommend a good writing program in Iowa.

[Dirtman 1]

16. Attaboy

Well said Shorebound.

[Dirtman 1]

17. Universal Health Care??

RBin Maine said "What to do? MANY things, but universal single payer healthcare like Canada and MANY other advanced nations would help big time."

Shorebound said "I'd be more than willing to consider that very seriously, but not at the state level. As you noted, "Canada and many other advanced NATIONS." (Emphasis mine.) Something like that MUST be nationwide. Maine simply does not have the wealth necessary to make it work BY OURSELVES. We're trying to do it with Dirigo and MaineCare and we're crippling ourselves financially as a result. This is the road Tennessee tried to travel a couple of years ago, and it almost bankrupted the state"

This is a hugely complicated issue most Mainers (including me!) don't understand. What is it we do differently here in Maine that causes our health insurance premiums to cost so much more than in our neighboring state of New Hampshire (NH)? Are we requiring insuarance companies to provide coverage for illnesses not covered in NH? What is it that is causing this difference and how would Universal Health Care solve that problem?

The Dirigo plan (as I understand it) is a step towards Universal Health Care, but the costs of this fledgling program have proven to be staggering compared to the coverage results. How to pay for this is yet another quagmire that hasn't been answered satisfactorily either. I have health insurance through my employer that I pay for. I wasn't happy to see my rates go up to pay for Dirigo.

Anyway, a complicated issue I admit I don't understand well, but it needs an explanation such that us "simple folk" can at least grasp it.

[ticapnews]

18. What we do differently...

One thing we do differently is have hospitals that buy all kinds of wonderful high-tech gadgets that costs millions of dollars. Why do you think an Aspirin costs $30 in a Maine hospital? Why do you think if you go to a hospital with a hangnail they want to take X-rays and get an MRI done?

Maine's population: 1,274,923
New Hampshire's population: 1,235,786

Why does Maine have 8 times as many MRI machines than New Hampshire does? Are Mainers a bunch of klutzes that need an MRI every 10 minutes? Do we need them simultaneously, thus the need for so many? Is it necessary for every hospital in the state to buy every new piece of equipment? Could maybe a few of them specialize in certain areas and others specialize in others, thus reducing the costs to both them and (in the end) patients?

No, rather than look at those issues, let's blame Democrats for having the guts to try to tackle an issue like health care. Better to ignore the problem and stick with the GOP health care plan: Don't get sick.

Oh, and your health insurance didn't go up to pay for Dirigo. It went up to pay for WellPoint (formerly Anthem) CEO Larry Glasscock's $42,500,000 bonus (because the $3,730,000 salary wasn't enough compensation). Your rates will go up again next year, especially considering Mr. Glasscock gave himself an early Christmas present last week. He exercised his option on 20,000 shares of stock, pocketing a cool $820,000. So when you you see your rates go up, be sure to thank Mr. Glasscock, not Governor Baldacci and the Legislature.

[Dirtman 1]

19. Maine doing differently

Ticapnews
First off - I wasn't "Blaming" anybody. I was simply asking some questions.
You may have a good point about Maine hospitals buying all kinds of high-tech gadgets. I didn't know we have 8 times as many MRI machines as NH. Where did you get that info? This may explain some of the difference between Maine and NH premiums, but I doubt all of it.
As far as the bonus for Mr. Glassscock, I'm not going to address the worthiness of the bonus for this executive. I'll let others evaluate that. However, wouldn't this be spread out over all premiums and not just those in Maine?
There has to be something more than just additional equipment purchases by hospitals to explain the large disparity between the premiums paid in Maine vs NH.

[Shorebound]

20. Eight times?

Wow, I had no idea. How many does New Hampshire have? Does it benefit from having MRI facilities in Boston so close?

If true in an absolute sense, then something is off base in the Maine Certificate of Need program, because each of those MRI machines needed state approval to be acquired by a hospital. Private companies don't need a CON, I think. The MRI at Eastern Maine Med Center in Bangor, frex, is privately owned by a group of doctors. St. Joe's has its own MRI, too, IIRC, and that's probably one too many for the Bangor area.

You're probably right about MRI machines being used too much, but isn't it fair to say that one reason doctors refer patients for scans so often -- beyond the fact that they're a dynamite diagnostic tool -- is because they're afraid of malpractice suits? If they don't use EVERY tool at their disposal to diagnose an ailment, they can be crucified in a courtroom. "You mean who COULD have had my client''s hangnail scanned in an MRI and you DIDN'T?"

Yeah, yeah, I know -- blame the lawyers. But in this case it might be a legitimate contributing factor, and I have no idea how to fix it.

As for other factors in our high insurance rates, well, we could get into that, but it would just get messy because it turns into a finger-pointing exercise. And it is Christmas.

[Dirtman 1]

35. Where's the info

Ticapnews - still waiting, where did you get the info on MRI machines?

[Shorebound]

36. One source

Dirtman, I found a reference in an op-ed by David White that appeared in the Bangor Daily News on Nov. 11 of this year. A copy is posted at the Maine People's Alliance website:

http://www.mainepeoplesalliance.org/newsmedia/newsarticles/110106bdn_davewhite.html

White gives no original source for his information. I've looked for an inventory of MRI machines in Maine and New Hampshire and can't seem to find a definitive number. Maybe I'm not asking Google the right questions.

[Dirtman 1]

41. More research

Thanks Shorebound. I still question Maine having 8 times as many MRIs as New Hampshire, but I'll do some more research.

[luckyleftyme2]

21. WELL DIRTMAN

YOUR DEF. NEW TO THE BLOG.I've been pushing nat. health care for 20 years. And the tabor bill was pushed by the right.
Shorebound is a switch hitter, but like his "dad" believes business should run government.
My family like many others in maine,hit the usa in the late 1800's. Farming,mill wrights,papermakers,fisherman and a sprinkle of law enforcement,medical and teachers among the family. And we still have family in canada,england,scotland and ireland.
Many of the canadian side tell us a much different tale of national health-care than we hear in the watering holes of rural maine.
THEREhave been many studies done of the cost of our health-care. The majority say we over pay for what we get.in fact we could cover everyone in the nation for less than what we spend to private insurance companies and at the same time have better coverage.
We also have studies that show canadas health care system provides better care than ours.
You see i've been this route with shorebound before;and when cornered his response is "improve your grammar,stop your caps.
WELL HERE'S MY ANSWER:I SPENT 30 YEARS OF MY LIFE LEADING YOU YOUNG COLLEGE GRADS AROUND THE CONS'T ARENA. THE MAJORITY OF YOU COULDN'T SEE THE FORRESTS FOR THE TREES.
AT SNOW FALLS I HAD THE DISTRICT ENG. AND RESIDENT ENG COME TO ME AN ASK IF I COULD DO SQUARE ROUTE LONG HAND BECAUSE THE POWER WAS OUT AND THEIR OFFICE CALC. WAS DOWN.
OH BY THE WAY THE REST AREA WAS MY DESIGN!
I HAVE SEEN THE INCREASE OF MEDICAL COSTS GO UP AT A RATE THAT PEOPLE COULD NOT AFFORD FOR TO MANY YEARS NOT TO SPEAK OUT.
THEY HAVE ERODED ALL THE SAFETY NETS THAT THE WORKERS,BOTH UNION AND NON-UNION HAVE WORKED AND EARNED OVER THE YEARS TO INCREASE PROFITS. THE GENERATION BEHIND ME WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BEAR THE BURDEN.
SO WHEN I SPEAK IT'S NOT FOR ME BUT FOR MY CHILDREN AND GRAND CHILDREN. AND THESE WET BEHIND THE EARS YUPPIES WILL FIND OUT THEY HAVE BEEN USED TO BENIFIT THE FEW!

[Shorebound]

22. Y'know Luckless

I try with you. I really do. Yet your only response is more ad hominem attacks, the reaction of a child who can't debate the facts so decides to attack the person. The only person who ends up getting cornered is you. Remember the last time you did this? The moderators ended up removing a whole raft of your posts because of your lies about me. We can go that route again if you want, but I would much rather have a discussion of the issue. You seem to think I oppose national health care, which is inaccurate. I have serious reservations about Dirigo because I fear that it's a program whose reach exceeds its grasp, sort of like those engineers who couldn't do square roots without their calculators. The front page of today's Press Herald has an excellent article about it, BTW.

Now, you say: "THEREhave been many studies done of the cost of our health-care. The majority say we over pay for what we get.in fact we could cover everyone in the nation for less than what we spend to private insurance companies and at the same time have better coverage."

Excellent. So where are these studies? Share them with us so we can be better informed about the debate. Talk about the FACTS, my friend, and we can have an interesting, informative discussion. If you just want to toss out more lies and baseless accusations about me, well, that route has consequences, too.

And BTW, you never knew my Dad, and making derogatory comments about him is way beyond anything you have any right to do. Watch your mouth, blowhard.

[luckyleftyme2]

25. THATS EXACTLY YOUR STANCE

YOU'VE NEVER BEEN ON THE FRONT LINES,IN EXCUTIVE COUNCIL OR PROBABLY HELD A ELECTED OR GOVERNMENT JOB.
YOU CAN NEVER SHOW A POST WHERE I HAVE NOT RECOMENDED NATIONAL HEALTH- CARE, BUT HAVE REPEATEDLY TRIED TO STOP ANY MESSAGE WITH A TALENTED GIBBERISH RESPONSE.ONE THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MESSAGE.
NOW PROVE ME WRONG -LETS SEE A LETTER TO THE EDITOR IN ANY PAPER IN THE STATE OF MAINE PUSHING FOR NATIONAL HEALTH CARE INSURANCE.NEVER MIND THE STOPPER PROGRAM IF WE LOSE ,WE'LL SLIP IN THE ONE PAYER DEAL.
I'VE DONE THIS SEVERAL TIMES. AND I'VE BEEN ON THE FRONT PAGES OF BOTH THE PORTLAND AND BANGOR PAPERS IN THE PAST FOR PROJECTS I'VE BEEN INVOLVED WITH. (AS A GOV'T EMPLOYEE)
NOW IF YOU WANT TO STICK TO THE SUBJECT FINE,IF YOU JUST WANT TO MUDDY THE WATERS-DON'T WASTE MY TIME.

[RBInMaine]

27. So what are YOUR solutions?

My intention was certainly to advocate NATIONAL single payer healthcare meaning the govet. negotiates with providers, caps costs, and pays via one process and not 40 cents of every dollar going to administrative cost. We stop the sinful premium gouging and racket of the private healthcare insurance industry and fund healthcare publicly. Everyone is covered, it's much more efficient and much cheaper, and everyone is healthier to boot. There are many other elements to making it work right, but it's something we can and should do. This "market-based" crap has been broken for decades (yes, even in other states where premiums may be lower and competition higher but it's just "bad" vs. "very bad".), people continue to get royally screwed, and no one will take it on because it's all too heavily controlled by the medical/drug/insurance industries who have too many politicians in their pockets and because just enough people are getting rich off the status quo. Thus we have the doom and gloom crap about "socialized medicine" and never being able to see a doctor, and all the rest of the propaganda. I'm a progressive capitalist and have no problem at all with the private sector making cars, pots and pans, and widgets. But healthcare should not be a product for people to get rich on. I have also indicated, in broad overview, a need for a number of reforms to reduce our overall tax burden which I agree is too high. These are just some ideas, and there isn't time to go into extreme detail here on every idea. - I will say that while we don't expect home prices to be at 1970's rates, local real estate dealers have aggressively marketed Maine properties to wealthy out of staters, especially on the coast where I am from, which have driven real estate valuations out of sight up and down the coast. True, localities need to properly adjust mill rates for valuation caps to work, so perhaps mill rate reform is also needed. Another point to make in this discussion is that we also have a high quality of life in Maine, and we go out of our way to take care of our most vulnerable citizens and to provide high quality education and other services. I don't know that Mississippi, South Dakota, Montana compare as well on overall quality of life although they may have a lower average tax burden. Would have to look, but we are certainly rated as a very desirable place to reside even with what seems like your continued doom and gloom view of our state. So yes, a large combination of measures need to occur. But they must and can occur in a pretty socially fair way. You seem to be hooking on to many of the Brookings ideas going forward. Perhaps the Maine Chamber also has some worthy ideas? Are you familiar with any? Surely you don't support schemes like Palesky and TABOR. Perhaps you should lay out YOUR ideas for reforming the state in terms of taxes, healthcare, and economic development and, as this is a Democratic/Progressive site show how you would do so in at least a moderate and socially responsible way.
(I realize that much also lies with needed national reforms.) And if you want to cut spending, please carefully state what you would cut and how. Thanks.

[Shorebound]

28. Solutions

edited for typo

RB, I assume you're asking the question of Luckless, but I'll stick my oar in, if you don't mind.

"My intention was certainly to advocate NATIONAL single payer healthcare meaning the govet. negotiates with providers, caps costs, and pays via one process and not 40 cents of every dollar going to administrative cost."

If it would indeed work that way, in universal fairness to everyone, that's a plan I can get behind. Back in 1999 the New England Journal of Medicine published a study showing that medical administrative costs in Canada were a third of those in the US on a per capita basis. (IIRC that included physician admin costs as well.) Don't misunderstand me, RB, I think universal health care is the next logical step. I just want to make sure it's done right, avoiding the mistakes we've seen in other countries. I see the bureaucracy and six-figure salaries surrounding the Dirigo program and I worry that's the model for the future.

I have far from a "dooom and gloom" view of Maine. I was born and raised here and hope to die here. But I am worried about our state's future. None of my children nor the three children of my best friend -- all of them college educated and ambitious -- have any intention of coming back here to live and work because Maine can't offer the jobs, salaries, and amenities they want and need. My oldest told me flat out that it was cheaper for her to live in Massachusetts than up here, plus she was making better money. The demographics support the view that Maine, already the oldest state in the nation, is not keeping its best and brightest. We have a great educational system, but we seem to be educating our youngsters for jobs in other places. That doesn't jibe with anyone's definition of Maine being a desireable place to live except to the rich out-of-state retirees who are driving up real estate prices.

When I was growing up on the farm, we were land rich and cash poor. My father said more than once: You can't eat the view. These days, I think he would say: You can't eat the lifestyle.

The Brookings report has some good ideas, and I hope the governor and the legislature take them to heart. As I mentioned already, I support the notion of a BRAC-style panel to draw up a comprehensive tax reform plan. I do not consider Maine's current tax structure to be either fair or progressive. Personally I think we need to broaden the sales tax base, reform the state income tax into a truly progressive tax (currently the top rate kicks in at a level under the poverty line, which I think is shameful), and trim administrative costs at every level of government while protecting the frontline workers who are actually serving the public. The current chancellor of the University of Maine System serves as an excellent example of that. He has reduced his own administrative staff considerably without reducing its effectiveness and has returned the savings to the campuses.

I have no idea what the Maine Chamber is proposing and couldn't care less. To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been a progressive idea out of any CofC since at least the Stone Age.

[luckyleftyme2]

29. WELL WELCOME ABOARD.

How many in here do you think still think we have the best wages and worker benefits in the
civilized world? We have less time off with our families,and less buying power with our take home pay than the majority of the so called western world. If you factor in the medical expenses
we are way behind the modern world.
The way our government has been taken over by big business (of which many have close to 50% foreign money investors)and the breaks they have given them is now starting to show.
We lost our steel,coal,most of our factories and now our auto industry is on the rocks. Pensions of the working man have been ripped off,under funded and our benefits are becoming slim to nil.
NOW for the real estate on the coast. Much of the build up along the coast in the 60s,70s,80s and early 90s was inspired by local money.Now it is several investors in a project. It is not just the coast for the inland lakes in southern maine are going for 200-400 dollars a running foot. A decent sandy beach lot on sebago can top 400,000. my aunt bought 3 lots and a cottage at harmons beach in 1948 for 4500 dollars. they sold off the two lots in early 60s and for 6,000 in the 70s they sold the cottage and lot for 80,000. that piece if it was still in family would go for well over a 1,000,000. IT is all sandy beach and prime reale state.
I laid out cottage lots in harpswell in the 60s that sold for 5000,-50,000 that with the cottages on them today go for 600,000- 4,000,000. The average fisherman probably made 15,000 in the mid 60s-he now makes 50,000 may'be,he's being forced out of his heritage by the real estate
prices.
I believe a national health care program would help all of us.
may'be It will change on it's own,but Icertainly doubt it.

[MaineDem]

23. Dear Mile53...

Are you coming back to address questions or was this a fly-by post and run?

Edited for a stupid grammar error.

[Dirtman 1]

24. Oops

I'm sorry, I misinterpretted your post.

[luckyleftyme2]

26. THATS ALLRIGHT

I GIVE SPECIAL CONSIDERATION TO ANYONE WHO IS A RED SOX FAN; I REALIZE THEY LIVE LIFE WITH A LOSER COMPLEX. JUST JOSHING,CUZ I'M A YANKEE FAN. I GREW UP IN A REPUBLICAN FAMILY WHO WERE DIE HARD RED SOX FANS. GOD LUV EM, THEY MEAN WELL!

[Dirtman 1]

31. Explains alot

Actually, I was apologizing to Maine Dem as I thought his message was to me rather than Mile53.
You being a Yankee fan explains alot! :-)

[mile53]

30. LL's "Screaming"

Honestly, I was hoping for a serious discussion on Maine's tax ills. The first few posts by LL and his "screaming" portended otherwise.

I truly believe it is the subject of a reasonable discussion by reasonable people. Unfortunately, there is a shortage of both on this thread.

[MaineDem]

32. You posted and disappeared

I'm seriously wondering how you link the subject to a vote against TABOR. Even the pro-TABOR folks at the Maine Heritage Policy Center said the TABOR legislation would have no impact on taxes.

And what does TABOR have to do with Dirigo?

[Shorebound]

33. I'm still wondering, too.

I don't want to speak for the original poster, but is s/he perhaps saying that TABOR would have stopped the imposition of the new taxes and tax increases proposed by the Dirigo commission? And that this would be a good thing?

Hope he's not using LuckLess's shouting nonsense as an excuse for committing a drive-by.

[luckyleftyme2]

34. MY FINAL THOUGHTS ON TABOR

It was simply a dishonest bill. It was copied from another state and financed by a very questionable foe of true "democracy". One of the basic rules of "democracy" is that the majority
rules.
Hidden in the revamp was a rule that it took a 2/3 vote to send a bill to the people for a referendum.
Even the "naive" once aware knew where this could lead to. It stunk of "back room" we'll still control even if we are the minority .
AND the funding for this "tabor" bill is still under investigation.(as it should be)
SO unless it rears it's ugly head again ,or some of the same people behind it try to submit
another form of this farce i'll say adieu!

the democratic party in maine may have faults,but compared to the alternative i'll take it every time!

[mile53]

37. Limit Taxes

MaineDem,

Do you really believe what you wrote? TABOR clearly limited taxes by linking it to inflation and population growth. How can you possibly assert that TABOR would not have had an impact on taxes? It was the whole point of the effort to pass TABOR.

Rethink that one, would ya?

[luckyleftyme2]

38. I FEEL I KNOW YOU WELL

If you believe that then why didn't they try to pass it with a majoriy vote by the governing body would send it to the people.
Now how i feel Iknow you.Your the loudest voice in the local coffee shop,your the guy in the audience at the council meetings who complains about the pot holes,but wants to cut the public works budget.
but in reality like when gov. longely was in power,and our crews were told not to go out to plow until there was 4" of snow on the highway you'd already called me 10 times to plow rte#1.
when we tore up the section of road in front of your house you were screaming about the mess.
yea I know you well,your whole vocabulary is I,I,I,me me me.
If you think this is off the mark,look in the mirror!

[Shorebound]

39. LL

I don't know Mile 53, but why is it necessary for you to turn every post into a personal attack, an ad hominem assault that does nothing to help the rest of us Dems discuss an issue? Do you understand that you're making progressives in general look ridiculous? Or is that your goal? Has it occurred to you yet that NO ONE CARES about your boasting or about your background because it has absolutely no relevance to the discussion?

Please, focus here. And didn't you promise that your previous post was your last on the topic?

[luckyleftyme2]

40. oh well the man of the hour

re-read all your posts,so far they do nothing but attack!
and ll is the same deal you called me in "as maine goes!"
your really just another 3 dollar bill shorebound.
and most of your posts are crappo!

[jpak]

42. I rethought it

TABOR is still the brainchild of the extreme right wing of the Republican Party - TABOR and the GOP both LOST BIG TIME in the last election.

It would destroy democracy in Maine.

Take your RW BS somewhere else.

[luckyleftyme2]

43. right on

and now the losers are trying to get 2/3 vote on all expenditures. same group,and if you listen to some of the elected officials who were pushing for consolation of school administrators,they are now saying thats not enough. these same shit stirrers are flip floppers!