How come fat guys can be cool in movies, but not women?

[elshiva]

Please name me a movie where a fat lady gets a thin, handsome man.

The only thing close to that was "Real Women Have Curves," but unfortunately it was one of those "everyone thinks that she is fat but she really isn't THAT fat" kind of thing.

Sometimes a fat guy gets a skinny girl like in the "Tao of Steve," but Steve was so vocally against fat ladies.

When does a fat lady get in movies without it being a joke?

[Ellen Forradalom]

1. If anyone can land the handsome lead, Queen Latifah can

One of my very favorite Hollywood beauties. I'm checking out her filmography at IMDB, but don't see a rom-com yet.

[elshiva]

2. A rarity! But, I don't think of her as fat, but "big boned"

[WildClarySage]

6. I have noticed that women of color

are often 'allowed' to be oversize (bigger than a size 2) on TV/films, but when it comes to 'white' women, a size 2 is the biggest we can be. The only two exceptions are Roseanne Barr and Kathy Bates, and when have either of them been permitted to play a romantic lead? And when's the last time either of them were in the starring role romantic or no? Been a while, hasn't it. This strikes me as both sexist and racist. But that's not really unusual, is it?

Latifa is a wonderful actress and I wish there were more like her.

[bliss_eternal]

12. This doesn't seem to always be the case...

...Tyra Banks said she had a difficult time when she started modeling because she had "curves." She wasn't the typical "human clothes hanger" that the fashion designers love to put on the runways. Realizing this, she turned to lingerie modeling with Victoria Secret--where her more ample body would be appreciated. She also turned to acting.

Sadly once she stopped modeling and started her talk show, she too was "villified" for gaining weight.

I think if a woman of color has always been as a certain size (like Latifah or J-lo) they come into the industry that way and they were eventually celebrated for being who they are.

On the other hand, Oprah was always "plus size." It seemed a sick fascination on the part of the media with Oprah's fluctuating weight and size (prior to her becoming a stable size as she is now). Particularly AFTER Oprah lost so much weight and publicized it on her show, back in the 80's. It's like the media couldn't wait to say,"....look at her--she's gaining it all back. Haha!"

If a woman of color starts out as "glamourous" and meets many of their standards of beauty on certain levels (as Tyra did)--they will be put her through the ringer just like caucasian actresses if she suddenly "changes" (by gaining weight, etc.).

[WildClarySage]

17. Good point.

I was thinking of the show "Grey's Anatomy" (which is other my guilty pleasure aside from "House, MD") where nearly all the regular 'ethnic' actresses except one, Sandra Oh, are beautifully curvy, and all the caucasion actresses are emaciated looking.

[bliss_eternal]

20. Interesting example...

I believe Sandra Oh is also on Greys Anatomy (she's Korean). I read an article where the interviewer described her as "hollywood thin", complete with head that looked a tad too big for her body. :(

There perhaps could be a case made that curves are embraced more readily by certain cultures. However, in Hollywood you'll find examples of women from many ethnicities that look ridiculously thin (even emaciated). They want to be a part of the industry and know they have to "play the game" to a degree--so they do.

[BlueIris]

3. I can think of only one "'fat' woman gets thin, handsome man" film plot:

Janeane Garofalo's in "The Truth About Cats and Dogs." But before they can hook up, her character is made to feel guilty for "stupidly" and "unfairly" believing that the Brian character won't love her because she isn't as thin/beautiful as Uma Thurman's model character. Because women must share the blame for society's promotion of the mythical norm as the only way it is acceptable for women to look.

Welcome to the forum, by the way, elshiva.

[VelmaD]

4. And of course...

Janeane isn't actually fat or unattractive at all...just not perfect.

[Katherine Brengle]

5. And she's not even fat. She's just slightly frumpy - she's probably

a size 6-8 in that movie.

I hate the world.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

7. The film did manage to make a couple of good points

Mostly they came in the dialogue between Uma Thurman's character and Janeane's. I remember thinking they should just hook up and forget the stupid guy.

[redqueen]

8. Attractiveness, too...

Even when there are bigger actresses portrayed as protagonists (if not heroines), they have to have that gorgeous face.

Whereas Steve Buscemi gets lots of roles, and Philip Seymour Hoffman, etc. etc. etc.

*sigh*

[ismnotwasm]

9. I don't watch too many movies

But fat women are usually a side bar or a joke. You get obese male comedians in lead roles who "get the girl" in the end, without anyone really giving it a second thought. Oh, they'll throw in a couple of "fat" jokes--but it turns out to be part of the "charm." The whole beauty and the geek thing.
The only time I've seen it, is in smaller parts, where two misfit types "find" each other.

The above comment about women of color--especially black women-- have a little more lee way with weight seems very true in certain cases. Jennifer Lopez's "Big Butt"(?) gained admiration, whereas if it had been a white women--Kate Winslet for instance, the media would have tore her up. In fact, I remember reading that during the filming of "The Titanic" the director or producer called Winslet "Weighs a lot" because of her tendency to be a bit bigger. Cruel fucker, I forget his name. But it seems as though the longer a women stays in acting, the women of color who "got away" with being bigger trend toward anorexia.

You know my oldest daughter is a personal trainer. She's in very good shape, and would probably be considered "thin" by most. I love how she looks--she's very beautiful in all ways. With her height--about 5'7, and her muscle tone, she weighs about 150 pounds. If she was an actor, they would take that beauty, that tone, and that shape and insist it be destroyed to fit some bizarre idea of what women need to look like. Sad.

[bliss_eternal]

11. Titanic and Kate Winslet...

...are you referring to James Cameron? I'd never heard this story, but I don't find it hard to believe. He's an asshole.

Case in point with women being villified for extra weight--Kathleen Turner. After Body Heat she was the "it" actress. But the second she seemed bigger (around VI Warshawski period) the fat jokes started and she didn't work as much. :eyes: This was before the onslaught of "bobblehead actresses" and widespread industry anorexia. In those days, if an actress reached 30-35 she was tossed aside and the newer, younger actresses were brought in to take their places.

I don't know that I buy into the actresses of color having more leeway.

Yes, J-lo's "hiney" was celebrated. Queen Latifah is who she is and they accept and hire her for how individual she is. Her "image" has always been that "down to earth" woman. She had her share (early in her career) of being cast in roles that took pot shots at her size (some episodes of will smith's the fresh prince).

But consider someone like Halle Berry. If she "put on weight" you know we'd all hear about it. Why? Because she's always been a model, the glamourous type. They would immediately talk shit about her, because she's ALWAYS been thin and beautiful.

For example, think about Tyra Banks. The second she stopped modeling and put on some weight--she was on every tabloid cover "Tyra's FAT!" There was NO consideration for her being a woman of color, or having more ample proportions--she was just FAT. They love to destroy those that have been embraced for their beauty--and tore down as "letting themselves go." It's like they have to punish her because they don't want to look at her anymore. :eyes::mad:


I think it's more about the way an actress is introduced to the world and the image she maintains during her career. If she was initialy seen and percieved as "hot" we hear way more about it when she "falls from the glamour grace." (For example Kirstie Alley, Kathleen Turner, Elizabeth Taylor).

[ismnotwasm]

13. I think it was Cameron

And I think you're right--I was actually in the back of my mind thinking about Halle Berry. There is no way she's get away with weight gain.

With black women, I was thinking more on the order of comedy films directed toward black audiences, I avoid them because I think many of them are flat out racist. I read movie reviews. On reflection, it's the same pattern, the thin beautiful woman gets hooked up with a buffoon. The larger women, who is never lead, plays a mother, a sister, a misfit. Real sizes aren't reflected. (And in the case of black women, real COLOR isn't reflected--women actors tend to be lighter skinned)

Interesting how I can't come up with very many movies with black or white women of size that aren't comedies now that I think of it.

[bliss_eternal]

15. I agree with you.

I generally avoid the black comedy film genre like the plague. It's racist and exploitative. The truly sad thing is many of the films are made by black directors. :eyes:

A few actresses that broke the "color barrier" of casting "lighter skinned" actresses:

Cicely Tyson
Pam Grier (Foxy Brown, Coffee, Jackie Brown)
Nia Long (Boys in the Hood, Soul Food)
Debbie Morgan (General Hospital, Eve's Bayou)
Kimberly Elise (John Q.)

Hollywood (like the fashion industry) is very fickle. It seems to depend on who and what "the look" is any given year or time. In the 80's, it seems they could only cast Rae Dawn Chong in films. In the 90's it was Halle Berry or Robin Givens. If they were open to a latina it was Rosie Perez. Had it not been for the tragic death, turned wonderful film of Selena--I wonder if J-lo would have become a film star.

I had friends (of color)that were actors years ago, but they tired of the bullshit and moved on. The ones with lighter or olive skin tones were frequently told,"...you don't look black enough" on casting calls asking for "black actors." :eyes: I won't even get into how they wanted someone "ethnic" to "sound." :puke:

[defendandprotect]

24. Guys have ALL the shows, anyway, don't they -- ???

Think this probably should be expanded into giving some attention to that --
right now war movies all over TV --
What would a war movie be without an all male cast -- ?

If you take your remote every once in a while and just go around the stations, you'll see very few females in any role of import -- mainly they're still washing toilet bowls and showing us how to glitter something -- but mainly showing their boobs!!!

[bliss_eternal]

10. You may have to look to foreign films...

...(and some independent films) for this sort of situation. For example, Baghdad Cafe with Marianne Sagebrecht. She does have a "suitor" in the film, but her romance isn't really the focus of the story, just an aspect of it.

Circle of Friends with Minnie Driver and Chris O'Donnell.

Muriel's Wedding to a degree (australian film)--though one of the guy's interested in Muriel isn't classicly handsome, he isn't a big guy. Her spouse in her "marriage agreement" even comes to see her differently by the end of the film.

Perhaps to a lesser degree, My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

I know I've seen (or know of) others but unfortunately I can't think of them right now.
If I do, I'll return and share them. :)

I think european films generally paint women differently than american films. In european films, women can actually age, be larger than a size 2 and have sexuality of their own design. As opposed to american films where women's sex seems more about what the guys want to see.

I've never seen Toni Colette (of Muriel's Wedding) vilified or painted cruelly in the press for her size or looks. Perhaps because her initial introduction to the world was as the plus size Muriel. Also based in her being seen as a "character" actress as opposed to a "glamour" type or "sex symbol." I think this is primarily where the issue lies--in how the world and industy is initially introduced to an actor/actress.

There seems much more leeway in how one is viewed by the industry at large and the public if they build their career as a "character" actress instead of "sex object." Sad, but true. There's always a younger, thinner, prettier woman that comes along. :( I heard Chloris Leachman speak of this. After her first roles, where she was painted in that "leading lady" light she made a conscious effort to go after roles that weren't based on her sexuality or physical appeal.

[elshiva]

18. I loved Baghdad Cafe!

I don't think the leading lady of My Big Fat Greek Wedding was "fat" the title is just saying something like "my wedding was a big deal." I loved that movie, but she was kind of a cliched ugly duckling becoming a swan, but no weight issues.

[bliss_eternal]

19. True...

...on all counts. I know the title had nothing to do w/the characters appearance.

But not sure if you're aware but the lead from the My Big Fat Greek Wedding has stated she was asked to "gain weight for the role" prior to the production of the film--to kind of make her seem more frumpy, less attractive, etc. :eyes: She said they wanted to audience to really root for her, and they would if she was seen as an "ugly duckling" in a sense.

Knowing this is why I mentioned her and the film. No, she wasn't fat--but by Hollywood standards, maybe just a bit. ((sigh))) :(

[gollygee]

14. How come ugly guys can have their own reality shows?

But only beautiful women can?

[bliss_eternal]

16. Apparently...

...it's entertaining for them. :(

You also have to consider how men that have climbed to the heights in Hollywood as the producers that develop such projects are "ugly guys." This is how they live out their fantasies. The ones that aren't living out their unrealized ideals are helping "losers" everywhere realize theirs. That's who they market this shit to. We (as women) don't matter, apparently. :eyes:

[lizerdbits]

21. A non thin woman is a joke

Her opinions don't matter and she has no value unless she's trying to be a size 2.

This reminds me of something I saw on TLC or Discover years ago (before they started those fashion/redecorating shows) about how African women padded their behinds to appear more curvy and hence fertile. It seems that whatever a woman is least likely to achieve in the society she lives in is what is considered attractive. In other words, women need to spend a lot of time and effort to please men.

I could lose some chunk for health reasons but... fuck it.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

22. You got it

The less likely it is to occur naturally, the more painful it is, and the more difficult to acheive, the more likely it is to be considered attractive and desired by men.

[defendandprotect]

23. Excellent point!! Also all over TV; fat guy gets the pretty girl --

And, after great attention to anorexic females -- I can only say that I don't watch, but it's obvious to me that anorexia is all over our TV tubes still.

Am I wrong?

Wow -- I wouldn't want to be 18 again and being inflicted with this media --!!!

[rAVES]

25. truth about cats and dogs...

Muriel's wedding..

Bridget jones diary..

Though they where only "movie fat"

[Samurai_Writer]

26. Last Holiday

Queen Latifah gets her man in that one.

[smokey nj]

27. "Babycakes." It was a made-for-TV movie starring Ricky Lake and Craig Scheiffer.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096872/plotsummary

Also, "Circle of Friends" with Minnie Driver and Chris O'Donnell, although it's another "she's not that fat" situation.

[femrap]

28. I actually believe that the

'Powers That Be' (PTB) are consciously trying to make women believe that ugly/fat guys are as good as it gets for them.

Notice there are no strong women on TV now...no more Roseanne, Murphy Brown, Designing Women....and there won't be anytime soon. Five ugly and very rich white boys run the media and women are going to be put back in their place.

Did you hear the head of Warner Brothers said that he NO MORE lead women films because Jodie Foster's and Nicole Kidman's recent flicks were flops. EVERYTHING IS A WOMAN'S FAULT! Couldn't be that it was a crappy story, could it? Gee, how many films with leading men have flopped?????

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[Katherine Brengle]

29. Roseanne is still one of my favorite shows --

talk about fucking telling it like it is. Fat and broke half the time and overworked and imperfect and real and loving and brilliant...

That show made me feel good about life, real life, not an imaginary life that maybe I could have if I just lost 40 lbs, had a great haircut, got my nails done, found the perfect rich man, cooked the perfect dinner, etc etc etc.

[bliss_eternal]

32. Awesome show.

It's one of the few shows in syndication I'm happy to see "in syndication." If one more station syndicates the fuckin' Fresh Prince of Bel Air or Home Improvement I'm going to lose it.

I laugh out loud a lot, while watching Roseanne. I'm sometimes surprised by what I see on the show, in the sense that much of what she put on the air we haven't seen since.

This is silly but the episode when their father died, and Jackie had to tell the hard of hearing aunt about it on the phone, still sends me into hysterics. :rofl:

[wicket]

35. That show was brilliant

I definitely need to get it on DVD.

[bliss_eternal]

30. Ally McBeal took us all back at least a decade....

...maybe more. That Girl (Marlo Thomas) and Mary Tyler Moore(MTM) showed the world women could be tv leads as independent women. Ally McBeal showed them, a woman could be a female lead in a very short skirt, while pandering to male fantasies. :eyes:

Think back to the time that Roseanne and Designing Women were on tv. We heard more about the show "in-fighting" between the show's star and the producers than anything else. Roseanne was alleged as a "horror" and there was an ever changing staff of writers--all of this of course based on women being SO impossible to work with. :eyes: I believe it has more to do with a woman having her name on something, and having a specific sense of how she wanted her name used--what voice she wanted to use for the show.

Women that "don't play the game" by allowing network executives to package them the way they see fit, face being termed as "difficult to work with."

I did hear about the "blame" on female stars. It's not the first time I've heard this either--probably won't be the last. Prior to this report I was reeling from seeing the same accusations tossed Lyndsey Lohan's way. Entertainment articles stating her career is over, because she's a drug addict who can't successfully complete rehab AND her films didn't do well and that's ALL her fault. Yes, of course--she conceived of the piece of shit movie, wrote it, produced it, lighted it, filmed it, directed it and starred in it AND upon it's release told audiences NOT to see it. :eyes:

It's the way the old Hollywood system worked--women were seen as bankable or not. Women are props, eye candy, sexy things that draw the public to the show or old grey mares that must be put out to pasture because no one wants to see them anymore. It's bullshit thinking, but it's the industry reality. :(

Was Robert Downey Jr. villified for drug use in Hollywood? Fuck no. For jail sentence? Nope. They paid the extra insurance and sprung him from jail so he could work in their films.

Hollywood history will show us that Judy Garland's film the Wizard of Oz saved mgm studio. The studio didn't see it this way of course. However, when her films went over budget, didn't do well at the box office---it was all her fault, and she was fired from the studio. Oh and of course, Judy Garland created her own problems and was villified for drug use and emotional problems. All of which was created by the studio's abuse. They forced crash diets and pills on her since she was a child, but it was her fault. :eyes:

[femrap]

33. Sometimes I wonder why more women

don't just start their own production companies...do their own films. I guess the problem comes when it's time to distribute them and they run into the good ol' bad boys system.

I hated those short skirts on Ally McBeal, too.

Donna Reed was one of my favorites....she eventually had a TV show of her own. She had complete control of her production company.

[bliss_eternal]

31. Jackie Gleason and the Honeymooners

....seems to be at the root of the history of this on tv.

His tv wife's beauty was downplayed at the time. Gleason specifically was looking for someone that looked average given his appearance. He felt no one would believe a gorgeous woman would be interested in a loud mouthed, working class guy. He also wanted someone that was funny, a comic foil to him--and the belief at the time was that pretty women didn't have a sense of humour nor could they be "funny." :eyes: Jane Meadows (I think) was originally turned down as a possibility because of her looks. Learning what he was looking for, she had photos taken of herself in drab clothing, messed up hair, (all that the character of "alice" became on the show) and sent it to Gleason. He loved it and her sense of humour and she got the part.

Contemporary comic leads on shows seem influenced by Gleason's example. But these days the show's creators seem to want to play up the wife's beauty and attractiveness. Not sure if they are feeding their own male fantasy or their target audience, or both. But it apparently brings veiwers to the show.

The Honeymooners
The Flintstones :P
The Commish(80's)
King of Queens (90's)
Family Guy
Jim (00's)

I know there's more...sorry for the short list.

[bliss_eternal]

34. Correction to my post---

Audrey Meadows was on the Honeymooners, not Jane.

per Lydia Leftcoast who is presently without a donor star. :(
:hi: bliss waving at Lydia! :hug: