The NY Times Has the Last Word on "Articulate" --->>>

[Stephanie]

Does this clear things up? Please read the whole article if you're still not getting it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/weekinreview/04clemetson.html

Definitions
The Racial Politics of Speaking Well
By LYNETTE CLEMETSON

<snip>

There are not enough column inches on this page to parse interpretations of each of Mr. Biden’s chosen adjectives. But among his string of loaded words, one is so pervasive — and is generally used and viewed so differently by blacks and whites — that it calls out for a national chat, perhaps a national therapy session.

It is amazing that this still requires clarification, but here it is. Black people get a little testy when white people call them “articulate.”

**

“You hear it and you just think, ‘Damn, this again?’ ” said Michael Eric Dyson, a professor of humanities at the University of Pennsylvania.

Anna Perez, the former communications counselor for Ms. Rice when she was national security adviser, said, “You just stand and wonder, ‘When will this foolishness end?’ ”


***

That is the core of the issue. When whites use the word in reference to blacks, it often carries a subtext of amazement, even bewilderment. It is similar to praising a female executive or politician by calling her “tough” or “a rational decision-maker.”

“When people say it, what they are really saying is that someone is articulate ... for a black person,” Ms. Perez said.

Such a subtext is inherently offensive because it suggests that the recipient of the “compliment” is notably different from other black people.

“Historically, it was meant to signal the exceptional Negro,” Mr. Dyson said. “The implication is that most black people do not have the capacity to engage in articulate speech, when white people are automatically assumed to be articulate.”

And such distinctions discount as inarticulate historically black patterns of speech. “Al Sharpton is incredibly articulate,” said Tricia Rose, professor of Africana Studies at Brown University. “But because he speaks with a cadence and style that is firmly rooted in black rhetorical tradition you will rarely hear white people refer to him as articulate.”

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

1. Once again.

I wish for an articulate president.

[pnwmom]

40. Me, too. What a relief that would be after 8 yrs. of listening to Shrub.

[klook]

2. Good stuff--thanks.

It's incredible to me that come people don't understand this. Do these folks still say "pretty good for a girl?"

[Bluebear]

3. "Such a pretty face" for an overweight girl.

"He doesn't flaunt it" for a gay man.

On and on and on.

[klook]

6. Wow, you read my mind.

How did you do that? :scared: I literally was thinking your subject line when I posted, but decided to keep mine simple since I'm getting sleepy.

:toast: :hi:

[Bluebear]

9. ...

:toast:

[TroglodyteScholar]

88. "He's gay, but he doesn't wear it on his sleeve..."

That's the one my mom has used when talking to me. Essentially, like saying "he could pass ." She knows I have no problems with gay people, flaming or otherwise, so this phrase must be her way of excusing herself for accepting a person's homosexuality IN THIS EXCEPTIONAL CASE....

Pheh.

[Stephanie]

16. It's certainly brought out some surprising responses.

It's rather shocking. The article's great though, and reinforces the point that this is a longstanding problem.

[Karenina]

241. Hey Stephanie, THIS IS WHY

your thread is SO VERY IMPORTANT. Please look here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x133123

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stephanie]

5. I'm sorry.

You're comments are absolutely shocking. I'm speechless.

[treestar]

85. If that shocks you, try reading at freeperville

Your work is only beginning.

[CatWoman]

8. *whew*

um, ok

I think..............

[Stephanie]

15. too weird, right?

the article's good though - save it because I have a feeling we're going to be needing it again. :hi:

[treestar]

81. That's a really week response

Zero content. Must be you can't answer, and find the ideas emotionally threatening, which makes the world a very tough place to live.

[CatWoman]

191. well damn

what the fuck did you expect from me after that crazy ass, weird fucking rant?

I thought I was being "kind"...........

perhaps I should have gone with gusto with the "month" response, eh?

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. Oh good grief

You really don't get it, do you ?

[treestar]

80. The "you don't get it card" is so old

I'm over that one. I get more than you'll ever get, and you clearly can't explain your problem with it.

Do you teach young people that it is insulting to compliment blacks? Because it would not be fair to condemn them as racist if they don't know. I know but I consider that only a few rather intellectual white liberals will know and remember. And it's not only my vote you need.

I hate the idea that we will lose many a voter by turning them off, calling people "racist" when they really aren't, is likely to get them to turn right, hell, it probably already has.

[proud2BlibKansan]

157. Since that post was deleted

I see there is nothing left to discuss.

[blonndee]

11. My god.

I shouldn't respond, but I just have to say I can't believe I'm reading this on DU.

[klook]

12. Thanks for the Bizarro World perspective.

Well, actually, no thanks.

[CatWoman]

14. BIZARRO!!!! BIZARRO!!!!! BIZARRO!!!!!

[Stephanie]

13. You know what, little girl? I'm wondering if you read the ariticle, baby.

I don't know, sweetheart, you seem confused. No need to get all emotional about it, honey. Now put a smile on that pretty face!

[Katherine Brengle]

23. You forgot "bless your heart" or whatever that bullcrap is.

Seriously, we "get it" already, it's just frankly not something that needs to be rehashed another 8,000,000 fucking times this week.

Don't call a black person articulate - okay, fine, you've made your point.

[Stephanie]

25. Forget your meds?

Chill out. Nobody attacked you. Did you read the article? Or is this just a knee-jerk defensiveness?

[Katherine Brengle]

26. It's just getting old -

we get it, seriously.

Anyone who doesn't get it by now is not going to get it, probably ever.

[kwassa]

42. If you are so tired of the subject ....

then why do you keep responding to the post?

Why don't you just ignore the subject, if you feel that you have read enough on it?

Why do you feel a need to to tell others to stop talking about it? Nobody is requiring you to read the thread.

[treestar]

82. What does it take to "get it?"

Really, the "you don't get it" thing is just a cop out.

There's no response to my idea that if my black employee is hard working, it's not racist to say something either way. None whatever. You're just emoting.

Yeah, I get it. Don't say a damn word about anyone black. And yet that makes me a racist, because now I won't deal with blacks. Well, I will, because I know blacks are people and some don't subscribe to this crap.

Why is it hard to get that if it's hopeless and by dint of being born white, I am a racist and there is no way out of it, I may as well be one? Which is self defeating and stupid.

I have been told I was smart by many a man, but never would I twist that into an insult that meant, "for a woman" even if I thought he meant it. I have been treated so by superiors, but cannot for the life of me see what labeling them as "sexist" does as good when they hired me.

[CatWoman]

193. now I get it

Treestar is Bizarro Stormy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

71. Stereotypes are ubiquitous

Disagrees with me = incapable of reading.

Apparently "articulate" isn't a word that should be used to describe Obama. It's not unreasonable to ask which other words should be avoided.

If nothing else, it may some day save me the embarrassment of calling him photogenic or intelligent.

[yardwork]

121. If you read the article, it might help illuminate the issue

"Such a subtext is inherently offensive because it suggests that the recipient of the “compliment” is notably different from other black people.

“Historically, it was meant to signal the exceptional Negro,” Mr. Dyson said. “The implication is that most black people do not have the capacity to engage in articulate speech, when white people are automatically assumed to be articulate.”"

[lumberjack_jeff]

No, it suggests that the recipient is comparatively different from other *people*.

I find great irony that your reply to me illustrates the stereotype I was complaining about. I. Did. Read. The. Article.

I still disagree, because the author is wrong.

If I call you articulate, or intelligent, or good-looking, it cannot be reasonably assumed that I intend to disparage by comparison whichever affinity group you consider yourself. Newsflash: not everyone speaks in code.

Nevertheless, you see the phenomenon all the time. A person who describes Halle Berry as good looking, for instance, will be criticized because of the conclusions that the listener draws based on their own stereotypes of the person making the claim.

And we can discard this "historically" nonsense. Language changes, witness the word "consumption" - it was once a disease.

“Historically, it was meant to signal the exceptional Negro,” Mr. Dyson said. “The implication is that most black people do not have the capacity to engage in articulate speech, when white people are automatically assumed to be articulate.”"

This is patently false. If this were true, no white people would ever be described as articulate.

When we describe Bush as "inarticulate" is it a code intended to describe all other whites (men? Republicans?) as articulate by comparison?

[yardwork]

164. Let's review Biden's entire comment

Biden specified that Obama was "the first African-American who is articulate..."

SENATOR JOSEPH R. BIDEN’S characterization of his fellow Democratic presidential contender Senator Barack Obama as “the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy”

[lumberjack_jeff]

190. This thread is about the NY times Op-Ed which purports to be the last word.

The article goes far beyond Biden's obvious ham-handed malaprop. It claims that white people cannot praise individual African-Americans for their eloquence without intentionally disparaging all others. Further, it claims that all white folks consider other white folks eloquent.

Winston Churchill was eloquent.
FDR was eloquent.
Shirley Chisolm was eloquent.
Thurgood Marshall was eloquent.
GWB is not.
Clarence Thomas is not.

Claim disproven.

[Stephanie]

201. Not to make you crazy but,, how often do you use the term "folks?"

lol! Sorry, but that's another one! I never hear "folks" until the conversation turns to race, then white people suddenly become "folk." It's not offensive, it just cracks me up.

[Karenina]

203. Good catch!

:rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

209. Being a white person, I'm comfortable with "white folks"

When addressing people of color, I use "African-Americans" as that appears to be the term with which they are most comfortable.

Interesting question. Poor "folk" = me. Rich "people" = not me. It's true that I don't usually use the term folk to describe affinity groups to which I don't belong.

Not sure what I'd read into it, however. Perhaps someone could offer some stereo.... err "impressions" about someone who would use language in this way.

[Karenina]

212. I frequently use the word "folks."

I just don't recall having ever seen you use it before. Of course, I haven't read ALL of your posts.

[AbbyR]

245. I use "folks" all the time

When I do, I'm talking about people in general, no race indicated.

[Karenina]

250. You do.

Others don't. ;-)

[Stephanie]

200. Let's try it this way >

SENATOR BARACK OBAMA described his fellow Democratic presidential contender Senator Joseph Biden as “the first white male Northeastern candidate who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy.”

Sounds a little funny, no? Hmmm....

[Karenina]

204. If I'm not mistaken

Delaware is south of the Mason-Dixon line.

[Stephanie]

205. Oh okay - let me try again.

SENATOR BARACK OBAMA described his fellow Democratic presidential contender Senator Joseph Biden as “the first white male Southerner who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy.”

You know, that's even better!

[Karenina]

213. ...

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[pnwmom]

56. What is this "little girl" business?

[Stephanie]

62. Let me explain it to you.

Men sometimes talk this way to women. Complete strangers will use this kind of language with us. Language that might be appropriate when used by a loved one, such as honey, is innappropriate when it's used in another context, such as by a boss or a catcalling construction worker. The difference is context. Men who use this type of language innappropriately will often defend it by saying they didn't mean anything by it, it's a term of affection, etc. I am providing an example to the poster of language that she's probably heard used towards herself, language that she's probably found offensive in certain circumstances, which is in and of itself innocous. I am hoping that when she remembers being in this sort of situation herself, she will understand a little bit more of where black people are coming from regarding the OP. Please let me know if you have any more questions.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

72. Most Of Us Absolutely See Where Those Who Were Offended Are Coming From.

But that's not the problem. The big disconnect here is that the simple act of being offended by a statement doesn't override the true nature or intent of the statement. The problem is when one who is offended can't make the leap from reaction to reality. It is perfectly ok to react to a statement with offense and explain why such perception occurred. But it is the mark of one who is wise to be able to objectively re-assess the situation and overcome their reaction by giving the situation further thought and reaching the conclusion that though they reacted strongly for good reason, that upon further objective review of the reality of the statement realize that it was in fact harmless.

That is the problem I see here: That some are so fixated in their initial reaction to the statement that they are absolutely refusing to peek outside their narrow box to consider a full picture of the situation rather than just the one they initially perceived. And that is not the mark of one who is wise; it is the mark of foolishness.

Almost all of us (if not all) can understand why there would be some sensitivity to the statement and initial reaction of disgust. What we don't understand is why after being made aware that in politics the term 'articulate' is used as one of the most COMMON adjectives to describe politicians, some still refuse to acknowledge the fact and will hold onto their reactionary position as if the gospel and as if no other possible explanation exists. Normally, such a stance only makes the person holding it to look like a fool and overall is harmless to anyone else. But in this case, that foolishness is being used to literally DESTROY the character of another human being, thereby making it harmful and disgusting. That is why I will continue to defend him against the unwarranted character attacks; even if I personally don't like him too much to begin with.

[bettyellen]

77. aren't you glossing over that he said -for a black man...he's articulate?

by isolating the articulate, you're ignoring the context.
trust me, if you've been on the wrong side of these backhanded compliments, context is everything. and joe provided the context that is usually merely hinted at.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

89. I Cannot Gloss Over Something That Was NEVER Said.

In fact, I find your complete and intentional twisting of his words to be the greatest problem when trying to discuss this legitimate.

He never said 'for a black man'. You need to twist his words to make them appear as if he said that, because if you didn't your whole racial argument would fall apart.

But I got news for ya: Nowhere in his statement can the concept of 'for a black man' be insinuated. If you truly feel that concept was inherent within his statement, then it is because you have read the context wrong and are seeing it through skewed vision.

[bettyellen]

91. me and most of the general public perceived an insult, you're the minority here

how's it feel? LOL.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

95. Please Tell Me That Isn't The Best You Can Do. If So, That Was Pretty Sad.

:hi:

[bettyellen]

99. i know i shoulda went for the Vague Personal Insult instead of facts....

but your ass is hanging out there with a few people spouting off about radical minorities....
(and i can't help being gratified as well as amused that you are a minority)
but, OC you have earned, with your willful ignorance, the company you now keep.
i will leave you boys to it.

[sniffa]

100. betty!!

:loveya:

i Love it when you make an appearance. :*

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

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[bettyellen]

137. i'm always going dislike bigots, so crawl back under your rock, okay?

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

145. As Am I. Hence My Defense Against It.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

104. Facts? ROFLMAO!!!!!!

What facts bettyellen?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[bettyellen]

106. the vast majority including biden say it was a blunder

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

113. Big Difference Between Acknowledging Something Could've Been Said Better And Claiming It To Have

been racist in content.

Big difference. Huge difference.

I am in full agreement that in hindsight he could've phrased it better. But that doesn't mean for a second that he said it in a way that some here are narrow-mindedly declaring.

[bettyellen]

114. it could have been said better only because it is Easily Construed as Racist. Point, Match.

:hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

117. You So Silly. See, Just Cause Some Took It That Way, Doesn't Mean It Was.

The whole argument here is whether or not it was or not. It wasn't. It was innocent and benign, though some knee jerked and took it differently.

See, the admission that it could've been said better was only because some have knee jerked to it and afterwards have shown the lack of capability to overcome their initial reaction. But the statement itself had no negative intent and continues to be nothing more than an innocent and benign statement.

[AbbyR]

246. OK, I have a question

There is a really cool guy in our state legislature. He's smarter than anyone up there (or most of them), I like him very much, he believes everything I believe, and I will support him gladly if he runs for higher office. He happens to be black. Exactly how do I say that I like him because of his wisdom, his ability to express his beliefs (which are also mine) and his emphasis on education and health issues? I'm afraid I'll insult him and never know it, and I intend to work for his campaign if and when he goes statewide or national.

Advice here?

[Scout1071]

120. It was a blunder. And it was a racist innuendo.

But, that doesn't make Biden a racist. It just means that as a society, we have to keep this dialogue going. Yes, when white people say that a black person is articulate, Professor Dyson is correct....it does mean "articulate for a black person." Whether everyone in this thread wants to recognize that or not, it's true. But to be clear, Biden never said that Obama was "articulate for a black person." I really want to clarify that with you.

Racism isn't just "black and white" (really, no pun intended). There are so many different aspects of it ingrained in our society - in both the black and white communities - that it will take many generations to completely overcome. But, if we can't openly and honestly discuss it, we'll never get over it. And to be fair, we certainly have come a long way in the last 40 years. Yes, we have much further to go for all to truly have equal rights (including homosexuals, women, and other minorities), but Rome wasn't built in a day.

I, for one, am totally open to keeping this conversation going. I do think that it's time to cut Joe Biden some slack. I really don't think the man is a racist. He's been educated on exactly why those comments were offensive to so many and I believe that he has repeatedly apologized and now clearly understands why they were viewed as racist. If anything, something positive may come out of this, because we are now discussing these issues and words that bubble just below the surface. Hopefully we'll all be better for it in the end.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

123. "when white people say that a black person is articulate it does mean articulate for a black person"

It is that display of complete ignorance and narrow mindedness as to why this cannot be seriously discussed.

Your premise is beyond absurd, and prejudiced to boot.

[Scout1071]

130. Uh, did you read the article?

That is exactly what Professor Dyson says too. You don't ever hear a white person describe another white person as being articulate.

[bettyellen]

132. exactly, they may compliment a particular speech, or acknowledge particular actions

as being worthy of praise is reserved for the white men.
but this spewing off a laundry list of qualities (as if it's someone they want to set you up with on a date) instead of looking toward their record, it is particularly directed toward minorities, including women.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

139. No It Isn't. It Is Used In This Way In Politics All The Time Regardless Of Race Or Gender.

Your failure to be objective enough to realize this does not make it false. You can say all you want that it is only used with racial or gender connotations, but that position is one of complete ignorance and is completely unjustifiable in reality.


You need to open your eyes; and your mind. Your hatred blinds you.

[Scout1071]

142. You can't see the forest for the trees OC.

You are running around calling everyone else "ignorant" and "blind" because they disagree with you. Nevermind that black and white DU'ers alike have repeatedly chimed in and told you how offensive the innuendo was to them. You just go right past that because YOU weren't offended. And because you can't understand it, everyone else must be wrong.

It's so funny that you think you are objective. You absolutely refuse to consider anyone else's position on this and yet you consider yourself objective. It's that kind of thought process that is usually reserved for Republicans.

My eyes are wide open friend. Which is why I'm not at all afraid of these types of discussions. If we can't honestly talk about such things, we will never grow as a society.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

147. Actually I've Seen Everything Just Fine, But Nice Try. Furthermore,

I have already shown and explained that I can see the other side of the argument, so your accusation of otherwise is baseless and ignorant.

In addition, you are the one who made the asinine claim that 'articulate' is always used as disparaging when used towards blacks. That shows a complete perception of closed mindedness and ignorance.

You still haven't addressed the key point, regardless of how much twisted sentiment you want to throw out. That point is that the word articulate is used ALL THE FUCKING TIME in politics when describing politicians, and is used ALL THE FUCKING TIME regardless of race or gender. You seem to want to conveniently ignore this fact.

Declaring that because a white man said the word articulate in the same sentence containing a reference to a black man means it was racial and disparaging in intent, is one of the absolute most closed minded and ignorant viewpoints I have ever seen in my life.

[Scout1071]

155. No, you haven't shown that at all.

You have shown that you can almost irrationally get behind a subject that you obviously know nothing about and beat that horse until it's dead. I notice you like to call people "ignorant". Let's take a look at that meaning:

ig·no·rant /ˈɪgnərənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

You might want to take a long hard look in the mirror the next time you hit the powder room.

I have admitted that I have used the term. I have said that thru long discussions with black friends and family that I have come to understand why it is offensive. I now cringe when I hear others say it because I do get the full implication of the innuendo. I stop and try to think about such things and change them in my own life and how I treat people so that I can be a better person and help make society better as a whole.

You throw a temper tantrum like a small child kicking their legs on the ground. You've made up your mind and no matter how many people try to patiently explain to you why the words were seen as offensive in the context they were given, you refuse to budge one inch and admit that maybe you don't know it all. I suspect you are mad because you have used such terms, but don't consider yourself a racist and are offended that someone would be indirectly calling you a racist. Guess what? You might just be a little racist. I think every single one of us is at times, even in the most subtlest of terms. Just learn from it and think twice about it in the future. Consider that saying a black person is "articulate" in that context will be construed as having racial overtones. If you still choose to use it, well......then frankly, you are just an ass.

And with that....I leave this thread.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

161. What Utter Absurdity. Have You Not Been Paying Attention At All?

You keep repeating the same ridiculous talking points as if they haven't been addressed already, and then continuing with blatant personal smear that is unjustifiable. The post above is nothing short of completely twisted in regards to the reality of this discussion.

You keep talking as if I have refused to accept why some saw it as offensive. But as I have explained within multiple posts already, I have had NO problem understanding this simplistic concept. Now why you are continuing to speak to me as if I have either shows that you haven't been paying attention at all, or have and are just attempting to spin the reality to suit your agenda. But guess what, shit don't work that way pal.

My premise and argument is straightforward: Though it is understandable why some would've had initial reaction to the statement as one that had racial origin, since it is a FACT that the word is used ALL THE TIME in politics regardless of race or gender that reaction should be re-assessed and considered since it is reasonable to deduce that the statement was in fact harmless.

Simple to follow, really. Let me pound it into you again, to make sure you grasp it this time: The word articulate when used in reference to blacks has sometimes in the past been used in a disparaging manner. This historical perspective caused some to immediately equate Biden's statements as having been rooted in the same. Upon further review, however, it is easily discernible that its context was NOT the same as those who have used it disparagingly, and therefore the statement was completely harmless and non-racist.

See, I'm seeing the whole picture, for what it was. You and others seem to be COMPLETELY ignoring the FACT (yes, FACT) that the term 'articulate' within political context is used all the fucking time for anybody regardless of race or gender. That is a fact. It is used all the time. It had nothing to do with race in this context. You might want it so badly to be in the same manner as those who have used it to disparage, by saying things like "articulate, for a black man", but he in NO WAY said it in such a way no matter how much you want to twist it to make it like he had.

Fact is, an innocent man is getting mercilessly attacked because of some people's unwillingness to be objective and rise above their knee jerk reactions. And yes, whether you like it or not I'm always going to defend innocents from unwarranted attack and character smear.

[Lars39]

236. Biden's old enough to know and old enough to know better.

You ignore the fact that the word 'articulate' is *presently* used as a put-down. No excuse.

[Scout1071]

159. My comment below was intended to be a reply to this.

So long OC. It's been well........un-real.....as usual.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

136. That's Where You Are 100% Wrong. It Is Used In Politics ALL THE TIME In That Way. All The

time.

The fact that you are choosing to remain ignorant of that easily verifiable fact is quite troubling.

[Madspirit]

188. Hi OMC

We just recently made up...<g> I hope we stay that way.
I have to respectfully disagree with you. I think you are talking about an ideal world. In THIS world, if you refer to a black man/woman, as articulate, people will think you mean..."for a black".

Why do you think that's NOT what he meant?
Madspirit

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

198. For One Very Simple Reason, Which I Hope You'll Take Into Consideration:

That one reason is because though people have undoubtedly used it in the ways you speak, in the political arena it is used all the time, and I mean that literally, ALL the time, to describe political candidates of any race or gender. It is that level of absolute frequency of which it's used in politics as to why I consider its use benign here.

The part that gets to me about this debate, is not whether someone does or doesn't agree with me as to his intentions or premise, but instead the fact that many have ignored the frequency it's used in politics and only put forth the premise that it is used racially. That convenient omission leaves out that important fact and therefore leaves me with the impression that they don't care about other facts to the argument, but instead only want to see their view of the world without taking other factors into consideration.

Now normally, such behavior on the parts of some can be inconsequential. But in this case, the lack of taking in all of the details can directly affect another human being due to the outcome then being a character attack on them that they may not deserve.

Maybe Biden does deserve it. I personally don't think so. But if someone is going to make that determination, especially when the end result is whether or not someone's character is to be attacked, I think it is immensely important to consider all of the facts. And though it is a fact that the term absolutely has been used to disparage by race in the past, it has also been used far more commonly in politics as a general compliment to ANYONE, regardless of race or gender. This is easily verifiable by typing in the name of any articulate white politician of any gender in any race whether state or federal, and seeing how many blogs, pundits or news stories have used the word 'articulate' to describe them.

When the concept that it is used mainly as a racial smear is left unchallenged, then it leaves a totally inaccurate picture as to the reality of the term's use in politics. That's why I defend as I have: For sake of objective opinion making with facts and requests of due diligence before being so quick to attack the character and intent of another, who may in fact be innocent.

Peace,

OMC

[bettyellen]

125. how surprising it was for biden to find so many good qualities in a black man!

i never said biden was a racist, but it sure showed he could be pretty ignorant.
what's frightening is that fully knowing the context, some people here want to insist it's a compliment.
it is a textbook backhanded compliment, and that makes Biden either a fucking moron, or someone who is subtly trying to remind people of Obama's blackness (aka unelectability). take your pick.

[Scout1071]

138. In all fairness Bettyellen, I don' think it was either.

Or maybe it falls in the "fucking moron" category, but it seems a whole lot of people in this thread would fall in that category as well. It just seems so harsh.

I myself have used the term "articulate" in the past. I stopped because I realized how inappropriate it truly is. But, those realizations came from discussions just like this one. Before that, I truly did not understand why it was so offensive. Which is exactly why it is so important that we keep talking about it.

I welcome your input, as well as all other DU'ers. Let's have an open dialogue. I just request that you, and all DU'ers, keep the insults to a minimum. It's a heated subject, but as long as we are all discussing it in good faith, there is no reason to tear each other down in the process.

Capish?

[bettyellen]

141. well, youre a damned sight more mature than many others here...

who'd prefer to dig their heels in and insist everybody is always oversensitive or just plain wrong to be offened.
It's good to see somone actually thinking this over as you do. As a woman, I have years of hearing the backhanded compliments under my belt, and it's difficult to explain, sometimes it's just the tone, little noises people make. Context is everyhting, the majority of compliments I get are genuine, but I do know when they aren't. Weall know a compliment is not always merely that, quite often it is meant to be condesending (especially among competitors) and we know this, yet some want to deny it. But some posters here want to parse and dissect and pretty much deny the reality of the ugly side of race and gender politics. I guess it would make their lives easier to continue to denigrate and bully others into saying "nothing to see here" .
Wha's interesing is, how bullying the Biden apoligists are. Laughably, they call people who disliked Biden's comments racist... typical RW tactic, and it's total bullshit.

[treestar]

76. Exactly. Hello.

That response just proves what I said must be right, because there is no answer.

Anyone not old enough to remember the Anita Hill thing may not know "articulate" is a word lurking there to be used against them. (Though Joe Biden should know, that's true, but I think he did it on purpose. Bad publicity is better than none).

[Madspirit]

178. I LOVE this post...

You are pretty damned smart for a girl Stephanie but do you throw like a girl.
Madspirit *smart for a woman*

[Sydnie]

20. I am white

and his statement horrified me on so many different levels, you just don't get it at all.

Perhaps you have never heard anyone say that you are articulate and associated it as an expression of amazement due to your gender or your race. As a white woman, I have heard it said about me and to me about me, and it offended me just as Bidden's comments about Obama offended me.

I have been giving speeches in the community I live in for over 20 years. Have run and been elected to local offices as well. I once gave a speech at a school graduation (when I was chair of the committee) that held even the students attention. After the event was over, I actually had people come up to me for days afterward to ask if I "actually wrote that speech" because it was "spellbinding and so articulate". What they didn't say was the "for a woman" part, but it was there, in their voice and body language just the same. And these were the very same people that had heard me speak many times before, knew my style and speech pattern, word choices, as well as thoughts on many of the subjects before I spoke, and most likely had voted for me in the past to boot. I have felt more complimented when someone responds by telling me that they think I am a "hot shit" for the things that I think rather than when someone tells me that so and so were discussing my public appearance and they found me to be articulate. That to me says, they heard my words but they didn't get the meaning behind them because they couldn't get past the fact that what they were hearing was coming from a female.

It's part of the good ole WHITE boy network that we need to call bullshit on each and every time we see it. Yes, Bidden was intending to compliment Obama, but the thoughts that he strung together said something completely different than what he hoped we would hear. He shot himself dead in the foot with those comments, but began his own bloodletting with the addition of "It's a storybook, man", implying that Obama was so out of the mainstream "for a black man" that he would generate such a buzz that it would be hard for Bidden to compete with.

He was smiling while twisting the knife. He just didn't realize that it was his own ass he had impaled and not Obama's with his barbs.

[Tactical Progressive]

35. Except that Biden's expression wasn't one of 'amazement'

or surprise or anything other than listing down the positive attributes of Obama as a contender. He was admiring Obama in an honest way and it comes across clearly in listening to him saying it.

Which makes everything you're feeling about this incident based on 'an expression of amazement' completely inapplicable.


And maybe, just maybe, the people who heard your speech and called it "spellbinding and so articulate" meant it just exactly as they said it and didn't need you to read ugly ulterior motives into their sincere compliments. And maybe, just maybe, they were surprised that you wrote the speech because it was so far above anything you had done previously, and again you should have taken it as high praise. Instead of perhaps applying some low self-esteem to compliments and turning them into "for a woman" insults. Maybe it was just 'for you' an amazing effort. Or maybe they were compliments straight out, without even a 'for you', let alone a 'for a woman' interpretation your mind-reading talents provided you with.

Of course it's possible that you really did read their body language and tone of voice perfectly correctly all those years ago, with no personal insecurities filtering anything, and what you are relating today, as to what you felt then, is right on the money.

In which case it has nothing to do with what Joe Biden said anyway.


It's more than a little unsettling to see people talking about how something that happened to them thirty years ago, and you're not the first here to do it, filtered through all of their own neuroses and sensitivities, as we all have, thinking they 'know' exactly what Joe Biden did here. What Joe Biden said had nothing to do with anything that ever happened to you.

[Sydnie]

66. It wasn't 30 years ago, don't know where you got that impression

I said I have been making public speeches in my community for 20 years, and still do. I don't let the naysayers and the backhanded compliments deter me at all.

As for Joe and his comments, perhaps you need to listen to his words, spoken by him, more closely. The tone and speech pattern in his final comment, as I stated before, was the death shroud for the comment as a whole. "It's a storybook, man" spoke volumes about his entire message and it wasn't pretty at all. It very well might have not been his intention to show his cards so clearly and so early in the race, but he did show his hand to all the players. Were it the first time that he stuck his foot in his mouth, perhaps it could be forgiven as a missed message, but sadly, Joe has a habit of such blunders, open and in public and recorded to be replayed and analyzed repeatedly.

Joe's problem is that he is not articulate and he obviously doesn't have the filter that stops himself from saying or doing the things that prove that over and over again.

His 7-11 comment is another example. Joe is over reaching with his ambitions this time.

Remember the Alito hearings? He had some "moments" there too.

[Tactical Progressive]

163. See how you avoid discussing every substantive point?

That is typical of the discussion on this topic.

Questions on how you're sure you were being in any way complimented in a sideways fashion?
Questions on how you know >exactly in what way< such compliments might have been sideways?
Questions on how your own insecurites etc temper how you, or anyone, percieves compliments?

And finally the question on just exactly how a sideways compliment to you whether real or imagined or to what degree, is determinant in any way of what Joe Biden meant in what he said?

You avoided them all.

If you respond to them, maybe I'll respond to your points.



The 30 years ago part was phrased incorrectly, sorry. It was from another discussion on this topic elsewhere on this board, where someone felt they had received a backhanded compliment 30 years ago and so Joe Biden is guilty. I just wanted you to know you weren't alone in applying personal anecdotes to convict Biden now.

[Sydnie]

175. From your post

Quote-
Questions on how you're sure you were being in any way complimented in a sideways fashion?
Questions on how you know >exactly in what way< such compliments might have been sideways?
Questions on how your own insecurites etc temper how you, or anyone, percieves compliments?

<snip>

You avoided them all.
UnQuote

From my FIRST post (I didn't avoid your "points" I had already addressed them before you posted at all) Quote-

"I have been giving speeches in the community I live in for over 20 years. Have run and been elected to local offices as well."
<snip>

"What they didn't say was the "for a woman" part, but it was there, in their voice and body language just the same. And these were the very same people that had heard me speak many times before, knew my style and speech pattern, word choices, as well as thoughts on many of the subjects before I spoke, and most likely had voted for me in the past to boot."
Unquote

So you see, I have no insecurities in my ability to communicate an idea clearly enough to be supported or opposed in the beliefs about which I speak, to my face. Comments on the subject matter hold more weight for me than compliments on the way in which I structure my sentences, especially when accompanied by that distinctive "tone" and reflexive body language that many women as well as all stripes of minorities have come to recognize from a 1000 paces away. Not doing so is the equivalent of the battered woman who continues to pick as their future mate their next abuser in a long line of abusers. We must learn from our experiences and yes, sometimes that applies when we hear someone else become the target of the same tactics that have been used on us, personally. Share the enlightenment, so to speak.

I could care less if you respond to my posts or not. Your comprehension on what I originally posted leaves something to be desired and I think any further responses would as well. :eyes:

edited to add where my quote ended. No content has been changed at all.

[treestar]

78. Come on, Biden is not "amazed" at that

He made a slip of the tongue, but any of us could do it

[bettyellen]

151. he called it "storybook" which would include a sense of "amazement" yes....

it's entirely 100% applicable.

but even your characterizations of others post here have been inaccurate, so not surprising you missed that tidbit too. Pls read more carefully before posting your analysis.

[Tactical Progressive]

169. The storybook comment at the end

was his characterization of the totality of all of the compliments he had just applied to Obama. That he is the first mainstream African-American candidate for the Presidenccy, plus that he is bright, and articulate, skeleton-free and good-looking. That's the storybook candidate that Joe sees.

He wasn't 'amazed' that an African-American is articulate. That's just a ridiculously contrived characterization of Biden's actual comments and tone. You really have to want to slander Joe for racism to pick out 'articulate', then apply a sense of amazement to that one word, then redefine the word itself into some kind of pejorative, to come up with Biden 'being amazed that an African-American can speak well'. That's circus-quality contortionism to paint him that way. You want to talk about inaccurate characterizations; you've just trumped the lot.


How about an overall question for you people to see what you're trying to do. Do you honestly believe that Joe Biden, who has worked with probably hundreds if not thousands of extremely talented, high-level African-American lawyers up there on Capitol Hill, is actually 'amazed' that a black man can speak well?

It is an absurd notion on the face of it. Just think about what you are saying in your quest to find any way to impugn Joe Biden.

[bettyellen]

170. "you people" ?!?? LOL.... wow, if you can characterize me and others like that.....

.... well then, it is truly no surprise that you see nothing wrong with the comments.
keep parsing away, but Biden was amazed the man had all those qualities AND was black. Biden's sentiment, not my contrivance.

[Tactical Progressive]

171. You people being the majority Biden attackers on this thread

If you're implying that it is something about race, I have no idea who is what race in any of this and I don't care. I use that construct almost every time I'm a minority in a thread.

If you can't respond to points, then continue not to do so. If you can, then respond to the 'overall question' I posed.

[bettyellen]

174. what's absurd is thinking this is about "finding a way" to hurt Joe, he did it on his own

with his sense of amazement that one black man could possess not one, but a whole laundry list of great qualities.
big ooops, great that he admitted it. otherwise i could give one big fat fuck about biden. he's not particularly interesting to me.

[Tactical Progressive]

177. Well, I can see that as one possibly valid interpretation

of what he actually did say, ie 'amazed that one black man could posess a laundry list of great qualities'. I don't agree with that characterization at all, but at least it is linguistically and grammatically possible.

Unlike the common attacks being made against Biden that he said anything like that Obama is the first articulate black man to run for office, let alone that he was inferring that black men in general are inarticulate, except as an inherent inference as 'articulate' is now circumstantially redefined.

My interpretation of what he said, based on the words and how he said them, is that he is both impressed and worried about the formidable character traits he is up against in Obama, not amazed. He was giving his 'laundry list' of Barack's plusses before he gave the minuses. Those plusses were given innocently to my ear, that is without negative insinuation. He came right out and said what he thought Obama's weaknesses were directly after that.

The only problem I can see with what he said is in using the word 'articulate', in which case he should have been mildly chastised, being the first to confront a new understanding of the terminology, not assaulted as a rank racist. That is the problem most of us have with this treatment of Biden.


And I will challenge your interpretation here. It's been pretty easy to refute the notion that Joe thinks Barack is the first articulate black man. It's pretty absurd any way you look at it. You're saying that he's amazed that a black man could possess a bunch of great qualities. Do you really believe that? Do you honestly think that with the level and quality of people he has worked with and interacted with on Capitol Hill, probably some of the best young African-American lawyers in the country, some if not most of whom undoubtedly have other highly positive character attributes besides their verbal skills, that he is amazed that a black man can possess multiple great qualities?

[bettyellen]

182. yes, i think he believes he's the first black politican to posess ALL those good qualities.....

i think you're getting hung up on the word articulate because some (including me) found it more loaded than say, clean or good looking (sounds like he's going to check his teeth next, but whatever) but he did give a list, did he not, and didn't he say first african american?
so what is there to argue about?

[Tactical Progressive]

185. He said first mainstream

The other four were just a list of formidable political attributes, not connected to 'first'. It was pretty clear on the audio. It's obvious that Biden thinks good-looking and clean-cut, or whatever, are important or he wouldn't have mentioned them. I don't see anything wrong there.

There are apparently these points to argue about:
How pejorative is 'articulate'?
How much grief does he deserve for it (ie "racist asshole"?) being the first to run into it?

Others question whether Biden thinks extremely lowly of African-Americans in general, ie that he thinks Barack is a rare articulate. I give that no credibility. You question whether Biden thinks middle lowly of African-Americans, ie that he thinks it's rare for multiple good qualities. I give that low credibility.

I just realized you didn't answer my previous question. It was a straightforward question.

[bettyellen]

186. "first mainstream african american" why are you avoiding that so.....

and i did answer you as to what i believe. seems you just don't want to believe it.

and good looking and clean, yeah, those are the kind of objectifying adjectives that make us women, black men and barn animals feel real proud of ourselves. this is how we are striving t be seen.

you are too far from getting the point for me to bother with anymore. seriously. see ya. :hi:

[pnwmom]

57. I have also spoken publicly and been complimented

for being articulate, and it never occurred to me to take the compliment as an attack on my gender.

[Katherine Brengle]

22. A-f*in-men.

I'm sick of walking on eggshells.

I'm not going to say something if I know it will hurt someone, or that it is inappropriate, but I'll be damned if I'm going to worry every time I open my mouth whether someone is going to be offended.

We get the point already - you have made it absolutely clear. Those of us who did not realize this term was offensive are now aware and will certainly make an effort not to use it, even if and when it is the appropriate word to use.

This PC bullshit is really starting to get old.

And yes, you are reading this on DU.

[Stephanie]

28. Don't get all emotional about it.

Hey little lady, it's not that bad. Smile! You look so much prettier when you smile.

:sarcasm:

[Solon]

31. Bless her heart, she tries so hard.

:)

[treestar]

84. Yes, walking on egg shells and that is what should not be

necessary in a truly race blind world.

Treating blacks as though they have no faults treats them as inhuman just as much as anything else.

What if I DID have a lousy black employee? I'm supposed to not say anything about it. But I could about a white? That's racism.

You're right the PC crap is bad, because it just shuts down discussion. I have debated with freepers and know directly that there is no good defense of it. I have to wind up giving in to right wingers, because on that ground, they have the high ground.

[Kerrytravelers]

29. I would suggest spending time on the African-American board.

There are many people there who can articulate for you the meaning behind the words and the history of it.

The actual word articulate means "expressing oneself easily and clearly; well formulated." And see how I used the word? Saying that someone is able to articulate their feelings and make it clear to the reader is far different than saying "For a bunch of African-Americans, they sure are articulate over there." That is, essentially, what Biden said. He noted Barack Obama's color prior to saying he is articulate. That is where the insult comes in. It's not the word articulate but the way in which it is used.

Words come loaded with meaning. For example, the definition of the word nigger is "ignorant; idiot, and miser; stingy" but the word is far more loaded than the dictionary would indicate when I double-checked the meaning just now. The word has history and the use of the word has history.

My mom use to tell me it's not always what I said but sometimes how I would say things that would get me into trouble as a kid. Saying that Barack Obama has a powerful way with words and is able to articulate his ideas and beliefs into moving speeches that inspire would be a nice thing to say. Saying that as an African-American he is articulate is not a nice thing to say. It was also a sweeping insult to the other African-American leaders.

I am a white person. And just like anyone else, I have heard things said all my life I would never thought as racist or unkind. But when someone who is offended tells me it is offensive and why, I accept their reasoning. I have never walked in their shoes. I don't know their experiences. At some point, I have to trust in their perspective. And I have to constantly allow myself to learn and perhaps change my way of thinking if I want to grow as a person.

This post wasn't meant to attack, but if there is still confusion on this word, I really do mean it when I suggest spending time on the African-American forum. There are wonderful people over there and lots to be learned. I have learned a lot from the time I have spent there.

[Scout1071]

143. Excellent post.

Really excellent and well-reasoned.

Thank you KT.

[Karenina]

36. (Heard over the loudspeaker..)

CLEAN UP ON AISLE 4!

[Brewman_Jax]

43. Another one using the

"white indignation" card. Rather than learn something, they fold their arms and tell black people how they SHOULD feel. Do us a favor--Get over it! :eyes:

[bettyellen]

68. "some blacks" want racism to endure..... and I'm sure you're happy to oblige them, eh?

most F'd up post i've seen around here in a bit. congrats!


edit/ sp.

[treestar]

86. Well, so there is no complimenting people or criticizing their

performance negatively or POSITIVELY if they are black? Or you're a racist?

That's effed up.

I really think only a few blacks think the way you do. The most extremist. And only the most extremist whites or those who use these issues to protest their "purity."

There is no way I'm a racist, and obviously I refuse to continue to be intimidated by being called one. But I'm not going to walk tip toe around an issue just because you want to throw a name around. You're watering it down anyway. You should find some real racists and through it at them. And then exist, believe me.

[bettyellen]

97. just knowing you think victims want to perpetuate their own ill treatement to what?

make the likes of you feel guilty? Kinda egotistical, doncha think? LOL...
well, um, doll. that's part of the KKK creed right there.
and according to you, i'm just another radical extremist uppity minority.
i'm glad i live in a modern diverse community, where i'm actually very mainstream.
i feel sorry for you, truly, that you are so threatened to have a dialog with people of color or give any credence to their POV. because that's how you come off, angry and defensive. Very sad.

[treestar]

75. Well it looks like nobody wants to really discuss these issues

Reality is just to hard for some people to deal with apparently?

Shocking? My god. How can you be so easily shocked and so unwilling to look at reality?

I know plenty about racism. But I'm white, so I'm a racist, right? So I can't say that anything I ever read on the subject means a damn thing. I may as well not have bothered, right?

Let go of that victim card, and if you're white, keep stop trying to prove you are cool by being afraid to say anything about it.

[sniffa]

83. yep, onLy about 10 responses to you or more...

and no one wants to taLk about your fucked up position with you.

[TroglodyteScholar]

110. LOL -- best response to this garbage YET

Thanks for chiming in... :)

[Scout1071]

128. Nobody is calling you a racist. Insensitive, but not racist.

I'm sorry that you can't understand why it is offensive that Biden would say that Obama was "clean" and "articulate." Do you see him saying that about Hillary? Or John Edwards? No.

Look, I don't think that Biden is a racist. But his statement had racial overtones......even if he didn't do it on purpose. Many, many white people use the term "articulate" to describe black people who....well, "sound white."

And sweety, you didn't even get it up thread that people were subtly talking down to you because you are woman. Honey, that is exactly the type of language we are talking about here. If an older old man said to you, honey, would you get me a cup of coffee? And you were the VP of the company, wouldn't you be pissed off? It's the same thing here.

You've been told exactly why it was offensive. If you still continue to use such terms, in that context, then that is your choice. But don't be surprised if people choose not to interact with you because of it.

Honestly, it just takes an open mind and a little humility here for you. I certainly don't think you are a bad person or a racist. I just think that you've got some work to do......like we all do.

[Patiod]

96. When I was a teenager, I never understood why some people

got upset when people used the phrase "some of my best friends are black" (or Jewish or whatever). It seemed really picky, or testy, of victim-y. Get over it! What's wrong with that? Some of my best friends WERE Jewish (or whatever).

Then, 3 of the girls from my sorority stayed over at the home of a 4th girl, M. The 3 of us were all Catholic, from middle-class or lower-middle-class families. The girl whose house we were visiting was from an old Main Line family, not much money anymore, but a lot of pedigree and lots of attitude: the country club, the Hunt, Pony Club, etc - Old Philadelphia money.

Her mother asked our last names (Irish, Polish, and Italian) and said "Oh, some of our best friends are Catholic!" and I swear to you, I heard a little "ding! ding! ding!" go off in my head. I got it. I got how patronizing it was. People could have talked to me about it for hours, but it took having it happen to me for me to really get it. They had lost a lot of their money, and were forced to send their daughter to a state university, and it was blindingly obvious that her mother was uncomfortable with M hanging out with such common girls (years later, when M married a Catholic, they boycotted the wedding, but that's another long story).

A few years later, I was saying how well-spoken some black politician was, and my black roommate explained (patiently) about the articulate/well-spoken thing. This time, I got it.

You might not get it, but if you want to get along with other people, and not have them look at you as just another clueless white person, you need to respect it. If you don't care, go ahead and continue to use "articulate" and "well-spoken" as compliments to your black co-workers and acquaintances, but don't expect them to be comfortable with you.

[redqueen]

173. Enlightening post... thanks for sharing your story. n/t

:hi:

[klook]

233. Great post

Thanks for this story - this gets the point across better than most of what I've read on this subject.

I have a similar, but simultaneously very different, story. When I was in jr. high school in the Deep South, some friends of mine and I were playing touch football in the street. It was a summer evening, so we were barefooted, of course. (Hurts my feet now just to think about running around on the asphalt with all the little rocks, but back then it was as natural as anything.)

My across-the-street friends' grandfather was visiting from up north, and I overheard Grandpa say to his son, "Don't these boys have shoes?"

Immediately I realized he thought he'd come to the land of Gomer Pyle and Jed Clampett. Whee doggies! Only later did I think of the line I wish I'd said at the time: "Yessir! We have indoor plumbin' too!"
:evilgrin:

[TroglodyteScholar]

101. You can't be serious...

"SOME blacks...don't want there to be no racism, because then they wouldn't have it."

Do you personally know any black people who are grateful for racism? Or are you maybe allowing your prejudices to determine your opinion of this controversy?

Your argument is a real humdinger of a stretch. I don't know where you live, but in the southeast the white folks will refer to a black person as "articulate" in order to identify that person as an exception to the rule. This is nothing new and it's not exactly hard to pick up on. To take a view like yours, you essentially HAVE to be coming from that same perspective of a general disdain for black people.

[aquart]

7. Should Biden go to rehab?

Seriously. The man doesn't have a clue that he's biased. I assume that people talk that way in his regular cocktail party circuit so why would he ever question it? Since he probably cocktails with the Senate...maybe more than one of them needs to go.

[Stephanie]

17. Biden needs to get over himself.

It's not that "he meant well," it 's that he SHOULD HAVE KNOWN. That he didn't makes me think less of him.

[aquart]

38. The thing is, he never thought for a second there was anything wrong.

He thought he was saying generous, wonderful things and everybody would look at him with happy awe.

And, based on my fun memories of the Anita Hill hearings (oh, wait, those hearings were for Clarence Thomas), I suspect that this is the common way of speaking in the Senate.

Although I would think Sensitivity Coach is probably the next growth profession.

[ProfessorGAC]

59. I Think The Most Offensive Word He Used. . .

. . .regarding Obama was "First". The first articulate black guy? Huh? I understand the point of the article and i like Dyson's explanation of the implication. But, even if it was meant as a compliment, the "first" statement blows the whole compliment up.
The Professor

[Tactical Progressive]

172. Oh JESUS!!!

He didn't say or imply that Obama was the "first articulate black guy"!!!! Professor!!!!!!!

He said Obama is the first 'mainstream' black candidate for the Presidency. That's all he said was 'first', and he's right about that. As much as I like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, they weren't mainstream candidates.

You don't even need the words that Biden spoke to know that's not true. You don't even need to know one single word to know that Biden didn't say that or mean it. Do you honestly think that Joe Biden, who has probably worked with hundreds if not thousands of the highest-level African-American lawyers in America, on Capitol Hill through his career really, possibly, in any way you could remotely conceive, thinks that Obama is the "first articulate black guy"?

That Professor, is probably the single point those of us defending Biden - not for being insensitive, but rather for not being the racist asshole he is being painted as here - are trying to get through.

It is exactly that he didn't say, mean, infer or imply THAT.

How possibly could he? Even if he were Strom Thurmond, and he's NOT, how could he think THAT?

Obama is the first MAINSTREAM African-American candidate for the Presidency of the United States. He's also bright, articulate (oops), clean-cut and handsome.

[Kerry fan]

18. Biden may be somewhat naive,

but prejudiced he is NOT.

He also doesn't run with a Washington cocktail crowd. He goes home to Wilmington, DE EVERY NIGHT. He has NO residence OR social life in Washington.

Wilmington, DE is probably about 70% minority. Joe is known to mingle quite freely with constituents of all colors and stripes thruout his state.

Joe's office is extremely friendly and helpful to anyone who calls his office with a problem.

That said, he certainly has a "foot in mouth" desease. It has been a Delaware joke ever since he's been in the Senate, but, they keep electing him by great margins because he does listen to his constituents and, I dare say, you would be hard pressed to find a politicians office more eager to help their constituents, from either side of the aisle. They WILL go that extra mile for you, be you Democrat, Republican, Libertarian or "Vegetarian".

In Delaware, Joe is just considered the local boy. Never snooty or above reproach. Always accessible. Yep, he might even "have a beer" with you at a picnic.

Delaware is a very small state, almost like a small town. Everyone knows everyone, somewhat. Nothing pretentious with any of their politicians, most especially their Democrats. Everyone of them just the "boy or girl next door".

Joe is just Joe, thruout the state. Joe is just "your average Joe", loved and adored wherever he goes.

He also takes teasing very well, maybe because he has been teased so much over the years. Great sense of humor.

[Stephanie]

19. Well I'm glad to hear it.

However, this was a boneheaded remark.

[bananas]

32. Now that's racist!

"Bonehead, a derogatory term in the skinhead and punk subcultures, referring to Nazi-Skinheads and other racist skinheads.<2>"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonehead

[Stephanie]

33. D'oh!

Actually, from your definition, it would be an anti-racist remark, right?

[Katherine Brengle]

24. Great post. nt

[Patiod]

103. Not to get OT

I like Wilmington (I used to work in Media, and what's not to like about no sales taxes right over the border?), but I love to razz one of my girlfriends about how small Delaware is. I told her "you people all know each other."

"We do not! Wilmington is a big city!"

"Okay, how many people do you know connected to the Anne Marie Fahey murder?"

She stammered a little, before replying "well, my kids go to school with Carper's kids (1), and her fiance goes to our Church (2), oh, and my oldest girl's best friend babysat for one of his brothers" (there's 3).

Typical. "Again, you people all know each other."

I was sorry that this happened to him, too.

[TahitiNut]

21. It's too bad Joe isn't 'articulate.' Just a good ol' boy from Delaware.

:eyes:

[Hosnon]

27. Can we put this whole thing to rest yet?

It was a racist remark and I'm pretty sure all DUers know why it could be (even if they don't agree that it was).

Biden's run is done.

I say we move on.

[Stephanie]

30. This article was in the NY Times today (Sunday).

I think it clears up the confusion rather nicely. It's not about Biden any more. It's about understanding why a remark you may consider well-intended can still be offensive to someone else.

[Hosnon]

34. Oh ok. Good progression I guess.

I really don't get those that don't see how it could have been offensive though...

Oh well...

[pampango]

37. I thought we considered the NYT to be MSM. Oh well,

as long as the "authority" has spoken. Have they told me whom I should support among our presidential candidates?

[Stephanie]

48. Yes, so when even the TIMES agrees with the radical lefties here at DU....

then maybe there's something to it, eh?

[pampango]

52. Perhaps. I only note with some interest that they can be the

"last word" on a topic, when I agree with their position. Yet if the NYT takes a position with which some here disagree, it is magically transformed into the "sell-out corporate media" touting the power structure's latest pr spin.

[pnwmom]

53. LOL. It does seem that way, doesn't it. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

54. Either That, Or Maybe You Treat As Gospel That Which Agrees With You But Shun That Which Doesn't.

My advice for you would be to open your mind and be willing to be objective, lest you be the victim of arguing a viewpoint from an angle of ignorance. (since closing a mind off to other tangents and facts of an argument can easily lead to such a fate)

[Stephanie]

63. I am not interested in your advice.

So please keep it to yourself in future. Why didn't we see you in DC? I wondered if you would be at the march...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

67. Hey, Not Being Interested In Sound Advice Is Your Problem. Tis The Way Of Fools, Though.

[Stephanie]

70. As you studiously avoid my question.

I was wondering if you went to the march in DC? I met a lot of nice people from DU that day.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

74. Focus Stephanie, Focus. That Has Absosmurfly Nothing To Do With This Conversation.

Just because you are incapable of refuting argument or positions within the context of your own thread doesn't mean you can just go off on a different tangent altogether and expect conversation.

:hi:

[trumad]

39. God it's really simple with this Biden thing.

he has a history of saying ignorant things that sound racist. It's because he's old school and he hasn't taken the time to reflect on how the effect of his comments. It's his whole statement about Obama that should be taken into context....plus it was right on the heals of blasting Edwards and Hillary.

He insulted Hill and Edwards and then he said what he said about Obama ---

I absolutely think it was a strategy of his to remind folks that Obama is a Black guy.

[pnwmom]

41. That may be the last word on the issue from the African-American

perspective.

But it fails to address the issue from the perspective of the non-African American who uses the word "articulate" as a compliment, no matter who is the recipient -- without the subtext of tone that the writer describes.

I strongly disagree that "white people are automatically assumed to be articulate." To the contrary, I think that Americans, of all races, are fairly INarticulate unless reading from a script -- including most politicians. On the other hand, there are some politicians whose speaking skills stand out -- people like the Kennedy brothers, Mario Cuomo, Jesse Jackson, the Clintons, and Barack Obama.

You seem to think that I shouldn't use the word articulate to describe Obama simply because others have used it in a negative way, or because someone might take it in the wrong way.

Why is it that you can't see it from my perspective? Why can't you recognize that most white people use the word "articulate" as a compliment -- not as some sort of racial slur -- and would be happy if someone described them that way?

[Stephanie]

45. please read the article

.

[pnwmom]

47. I did read the article, and found it one-sided.

It only addresses the issue from the perspective of African Americans who get "testy" when they hear the word. It fails to consider the perspective of many non African Americans who do not intend the word to be anything but a compliment -- no matter who the recipient is.

When I say Obama is articulate, for example, I do NOT mean that he is more articulate than most black people. I mean that he is more articulate than most Americans, of all races. And I get a little testy when people think they know more than I do about what I "really" mean.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

44. Not A Last Word By Any Stretch. Pretty Silly To Say So, Really. Just Some Misguided Opinion Piece.

Nothing more.

This author and anyone else can continue to try and put forth a premise all they want that "When people say it, what they are really saying is that someone is articulate ... for a black person", but they are categorically wrong in this context.

All of these articles slanted towards this misguided premise all have one HUGE glaring error of omission in common: Using articulate to describe a politician of ANY race or gender is one of the most common things in all of politics. The fact that these Op-Ed pieces keep so conveniently omitting this information shows how narrow-minded their point of view is. If there was a shred of legitimacy to the objectivity of the opinion maker, there would have to be some sort of acknowledgment of this simple fact; that it is an EXTREMELY common adjective used towards politicians. Failing to include that fact of the word, but instead only hammering narrow-minded and ignorant statements that try and make it appear as if the word is only used politically to be condescending towards members of color, shows just how useless these types of opinion pieces are.

So last word? Nope. Just a word. Like anyone else's word. Just a bit more narrow-minded of one.

[Stephanie]

46. You are consistently on the wrong side of every argument.

Why is that?

[pnwmom]

49. Did you forget we're supposed to avoid "broad brush smears"?

That's an example of one, IMO.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

51. Those Who Are Unable To Defend Their Positions Generally Resort To Personal Attack As Defense.

There are some posters here of which you will see this from often, unfortunately.

[blonndee]

124. Oh, the irony. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

50. Maybe Your Perception Of What The Right Side Of An Argument Is, Is Skewed. In Reality, However,

I'm generally pretty damn spot on when it comes to my positions.

I couldn't help notice, however, that you failed COMPLETELY to respond to any context of my post but instead went straight for a personal attack. Pretty weak there stephanie. You'll notice that I gave substance and explanation for my position and included a pretty important aspect of all of this, that you have chosen to completely ignore.

Now why is that stephanie? It wouldn't happen to be that you are conveniently ignoring the context of my post and the logic within it because to acknowledge it would mean you'd have to refute it, and you simply don't have the capability to do so, now would it? It couldn't possibly be that you're so stuck in your thinking that you have closed yourself off from actually considering any other important facts or facets about this, thereby causing yourself to argue from a standpoint of ignorance, could it?

Seems to me you have no objective and open minded ability to actually discuss this topic, but instead will only attack or abuse those who offer differing opinion. I consider that to be the weakest way to present a point of view.

When you're ready to discuss context as opposed to empty and weak personal attack, let me know. Then we could continue with a discussion if warranted.

[Stephanie]

58. That's very cute with the lower case "stephanie"

Ouch!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

64. That's Very Cute How You Once Again Were Incapable Of Replying To Context. So Weak.

[Stephanie]

69. Well it reminds me of the whole Democrat/Democratic thing.

Nobody means anything by it! It's just an honest mistake!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

79. That's An Amazingly Flawed Analogy. You're Really Reaching Now. n/t

[Stephanie]

197. Not really. You thought you'd get a little dig in at me by putting my name in l/c. Twice.

You, of all people, with your evident love of Capital Letters. And, just like George Bush, who snuck a little dig into the SOTU when he said "Democrat Party," you'd like to deny that it was done deliberately. See how that fits right into the discussion?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

199. Focus Stephanie. Focus.

This has absolutely nothing to do with any context of this thread's discussion. There are many posts of substance in which you can respond in kind with substance or refutation of your own. Focusing on the petty non-germane aspects of a post do nothing for this discussion.

I mean seriously; so I was typing fast while busy at work and didn't capitalize your name as I typed. Is your ego that fragile? Sheesh. :hi:

[Stephanie]

202. But it's absolutely germane! You'd like to patronize me, you'd like to get in a little dig at me.

And the whole time, you'd like to deny that you meant to do it. It's Exactly What We Are Discussing! But I certainly don't expect you to "get" that.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

208. Oy Vey.

This means that much to your ego? Seriously?

Move on for chrissakes. You want to discuss the context of this thread we can do that. Otherwise, have a good night. :hi:

[Stephanie]

210. The context of the thread is exactly what we are discussing.

When you try to play innocent after pulling a little stunt, that is EXACTLY what is under discussion in this thread. Caught in the act, you're waving good bye. No surprise there.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

211. This Has To Be One Of The Silliest Debates I've Ever Had. My God LOL

I've never in my life seen someone so bent out of shape over their screenname not being capitalized.

My only last advice I can offer is to simply get over it. Not sure what else there is to add.

[Stephanie]

214. How many times do I have to tell you, I AM NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR ADVICE

And I'm not bent out of shape, I am trying to educate you. When you PATRONIZE people, when you deliberately INSULT them or try to NEEDLE them and then pretend you did no such thing, THAT is exactly what we are discussing in this thread. You might think about the times in your life when YOU've been called names, denigrated, emasculated, bullied. I'm sure you've been in that situation many times. That is what we are discussing, so you're "innocent" mistake is pertinent. Get it?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

216. ...

:boring:

[Stephanie]

217. Why does that bore you? Why can't you address the issue?

You are endlessly accusing others of failing to address the issue under discussion. Why won't you address it? Because you have no answer, you are busted stone cold. Admit it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

218. ...

:boring: :boring: :boring:

[Stephanie]

219. Very mature.

No surprise there either.

[bettyellen]

225. OC's already acknowledged Biden could have been articulated it better.....

while stubbornly holding to the idea that there was nothing wrong with biden's statement. and the reason is- because he says so!
so there steph, can't argue with that giant intellect!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

235. ...

:boring: :boring: :boring: :boring: :boring:

[Stephanie]

237. brilliant!

your best post to date

[ProfessorGAC]

73. Hey OMC!

How about this? The real problem with what Biden said is that he qualified that "compliment" with the word "first". Say Obama is the first articulate black politician? The first?

I understand your point, but i would say this comes close to a direct insult when he used that qualifier. I think the use of the word was questionable, but qualifying it the way he did is, IMO, inexcusable.
The Professor

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

87. I Disagree With That Premise And Here's Why:

In my opinion, we can't pick words out of the statement exclusively and then use them as if they stood alone. Biden said 'and' not 'or'. Therefore, the true context of the statement is that he was the first African American that had ALL of those qualities. You can't just dissect the statement and use each word as a mathetmatical equation as if they stood alone by turning it into an argument of "Is Obama the first 'clean' candidate?", "He's saying Obama is the first articulate candidate?", "Obama is the first mainstream candidate?".

The statement was a mathematical one including ALL of the descriptive terms. Therefore, the true statement is as it was: That Obama is the first African American who is mainstream, bright, articulate, clean and good looking.

Now to me the problem there isn't one of race at all. It is merely a potential difference of opinion as to whether the other candidates before him were all mainstream, articulate, baggage free and good looking. Some may say they all were, some may say they weren't. When I objectively look at Biden's statement it seems quite obvious to me that all he was saying when all the terms are put together is that "Obama is the first African American that has a true shot of winning this thing". I have almost no doubt that is along the lines of what he meant. Now some may disagree and give reasons as to why the think the other candidates were popular and mainstream enough to have won, but I think it is also reasonable to understand why some, including Biden, would think of Obama as being far more capable of winning then the others had been. I don't think for a second it makes them racist to hold such an opinion.

[bettyellen]

90. so if you pretend it's math and not english, baggage free and not "clean"...

what other tweaks did you make to biden's words to make them seem okay?
and why should you need to parse so desperately? it's kinda pathetic at this point.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

93. Gee, Maybe Cause That's What He Meant By It.

If you think for a second that a presidential candidate would actually step forward and declare that the other African American candidates had been unshowered and dirty, then I wouldn't consider your perception to be on a clear enough level for me to even consider continuing a discussion with you. Hopefully, you aren't coming from the angle of trying to insinuate that he did mean it in such ways.

[bettyellen]

105. the sterotype is not just unshowered, but go on and play dumb if you need to.

it suits you.

[Runcible Spoon]

230. What the fuck makes you think that he meant to say that at all?

Either it was planned (if so, he's a fucking moron with no concept of cultural sensitivity; NOT a good Dem characteristic) OR it was a slip of the tongue (no better; unconscious purveyance of possible dark and sinister bigotry).

Obviously you've got the inside track to the innermost workings of his mind, right?

-OR-

SPIN SPIN SPIN baby!

[ProfessorGAC]

98. Then We Agree on Some Details, But Fundamentally Disagree

Sorry, but i do think you can parse the phrase and look at the meaning individually and whole. And, you math metaphor suggest i'm right, since factors, functions, and variables in an equation can be isolated in solving for an unknown. So, you say i can't, then say i can. I think the individual words, and the way they are delivered are always critical in understanding the intent and meaning. You can't tell when Silverspoon delivers a speech on the Middle East that he is utterly clueless about what he's saying? It's not from the overall context. It is the way he says what he says, and the way the things he says DON'T flow.

I do concur that he LIKELY meant to indicate that Obama is the first black candidate with a realistic shot at the big chair. And, if so, he should have just said that. There would be nothing offensive at all in saying that about a fellow-competitor. But, he didn't say that. He said what he sai.

I agree Biden is no racist. I do think he's too oblivious to be president though. And, i've had quite enough "oblivious as presidential trait" for the last 6 years, thank you.

So, on some details we agree. But, on the whole, we're on opposite sides.
The Professor

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

102. And Though I Disagree In Return, I Respect Your Position And Ability To Defend It.

It was refreshing to at least have someone willing to discuss it on the merits while actually listening to a different point of view, even if in the end it was still disagreed with.

[ProfessorGAC]

111. Same Here

And we don't have to put one another on ignore, just because we disagree. Sort of like grown-ups!
GAC

[Runcible Spoon]

183. OH FUCKING BULLSHIT LOLOLOLOLOL

"The statement was a mathematical one including ALL of the descriptive terms"

In your eyes Biden is apparently such a master of semantics and syntactic construction that he deliberately parsed his phrasing in that way so as to come off as inclusive in his "praise" and not insulting; meanwhile in Ironyville he spends many restless nights chewing Chomsky in bed, still unable to anticipate how his remarks might be construed by the unwashed inarticulate masses. Either you are the most disengenuous person I have ever come across or you really mighty truly believe that all he meant was an inclusive compliment, as evidenced by his "sophisticated" sentence structure. It's too bad all us unedubacated folks can't see Biden for the true linguistic sensei he is!

Either way:
:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

187. With All Due Respect, Your Post Makes Zero Sense.

Nothing sophisticated about the sentence structure at all. In fact, I'm laughin my ass off as to your interpretation of it.

See, it's quite simple: He said 'and' not 'or'. 'And' means that he's the first African American candidate to include ALL of those qualities, not EACH of those qualities independent of the other.

Now whether you agree or not that he is the first that had ALL those qualities is not the issue. The issue is that to be genuine with the statement, all of the terms must be weighed in comparing past candidates. (meaning you can't just take one; articulate for example, and claim "He said Obama's the first articulate candidate!", because that would be inaccurate.)

[Runcible Spoon]

228. uh-huh :D

sorry my post was too complex for ya. Also lovin' the hypocrisy as you blame others for not addressing the content of the posts directly whilst you just stubbornly regurgitate your flawed interpretation without responding to anything I said, save "(it) makes zero sense". Thing is, I DON'T think he utilized complex syntax; there's this little thing we like to call :sarcasm: I'm sorry it was lost on you.

I think he's a fucking moron, perhaps a slightly bigoted moron. At the very least he's extremely inarticulate (!), inept at reading social dynamics and anticipating public reception; hardly the caliber Dem we want representing us.

keeeeeeeeeeeeeep reachin', this is great fun! High five!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

234. You Failed To Address 2 Things: 1st, You Failed To Address That I Explained HOW It Didn't Make Sense

2nd, you failed to respond whatsoever to the explanations of why.

Now if you want to choose to continue responding as if nothing had been said inbetween while completely misrepresenting initial premise, feel free. But that does make for some really pointless discussion.

:hi:

[Runcible Spoon]

254. well you're the go-to man for pointlessness...

so I'll defer to you on that one ;) and you DIDN'T explain why my post made no sense, you just reiterated your argument; I see no point in debating you. You won't acknowledge the very real feelings some Duers of color and others who recognize the history of those words pertaining to "special Negroes". I think you've been flogged again, if you don't get it now then perhaps you never will. Tschus.

[verse18]

55. Also, the problem with the "articulate" negro

stem from the fact that through 400 years of slavery, legislatures, like Joe Biden, made it a crime for Black people in this country to be educated? Let's not forget about that fact.

[Scout1071]

148. Excuse me,

but are you saying that Joe Biden doesn't want black people to be educated?

If so, retract that immediately please. That is flat out false. If you want to make a point or comment about the lack of educational opportunities for black people through the centuries, that is fine and well. But, there is no need to compare Joe Biden to a slave owner who doesn't want black people to read. That is absurd and offensive.

[goodhue]

60. some continue to deny the inherent subtext

but it seems pretty clear to me

[goodhue]

222. !

[rpgamerd00d]

61. Was bullshit yesterday. Is bullshit today. Will be bullshit tomorrow.

SSDD.

Same Shit, Different Day.

[redqueen]

65. Fifth Recommendation

I still can't believe this has to be explained.

:banghead:

[ima_sinnic]

92. I will continue to call anybody who is articulate, articulate

I don't have a racist bone in my body and have a lifetime of service to civil rights causes as well as an interracial marriage and many periods spent living in "other" neighborhoods (including the present time) -- and have met people of every race who are inarticulate as well as articulate. To me it means well spoken, succinct, a wordsmith, and I never attached a "for a ..." to it.

Just as the word niggardly has now been distorted and made impossible to use, when it is totally unrelated to any racist connotation (it came from a Scandinavian word by way of Middle English meaning miserly or niggardly, with no relationship to the Latin niger, black), so this perfectly good word is consigned to some scrap heap of "offensive" words that we have to be afraid to use. Just like criticizing Israel makes one "anti-Semitic," so commenting on someone's excellent verbal presentation makes one racist. pfft!

[rpgamerd00d]

94. Exactly. I can't believe people keep posting these moronic threads.

[kwassa]

108. and you still don't get it ....

"I don't have a racist bone in my body and have a lifetime of service to civil rights causes as well as an interracial marriage and many periods spent living in "other" neighborhoods (including the present time) "

but you don't have the sensitivity to understand how the word "articulate" is interpreted in the black community, as a descriptor of African-Americans?

Understand that I am not accusing you of being racist in the slightest; I am just very surprised that you don't know this already, if you have spent that much time in the civil rights arena. I assume your interracial marriage is not with an African-American either. Am I incorrect?

[rpgamerd00d]

112. And you still don't get it.

Words only have power if you give them power.

There is nothing wrong with niggardly. Yet, due to morons, that is now a "bad word".
There is nothing wrong with articulate. Yet, due to morons, that is now a "bad word".

I will not alter my vocabulary due to the existence of morons.

[ima_sinnic]

116. only have power if you give them power, very good point

If I say you are articulate, and I am a sincere person who would say that only if you really were articulate, it is your problem if you want to be "offended."

sheesh. reminds me of women who complain when a man holds a door open for them. That activity "implies" things about her and is "offensive" and "sexist."

[kwassa]

149. I think you both completely miss the issue.

"If I say you are articulate, and I am a sincere person who would say that only if you really were articulate, it is your problem if you want to be "offended.""

No, it's not. This becomes your problem, just like it has become Joe Biden's problem, because you refuse to acknowledge the pain it causes other, simply because it doesn't cause you pain. Fairly typical self-centeredness.

Stick your head in the sand if you want to. I don't think you've learned anything from this thread.

[ima_sinnic]

153. oh, excuse me, I think I will just stop complimenting people altogether

if compliments cause "pain," perhaps it would be better if I just insulted everyone instead by pointing out their shortcomings. It seems you are purposely twisting my words. I will compliment a person sincerely, not "in comparison" to anybody else but because of his or her own qualities. Again, is it wrong to say that Al Sharpton is particularly articulate? Or should I just keep it to myself that I think he is a witty, to-the-point, dead-on speaker? You can add YOUR OWN interpretation to make yourself feel "hurt," but that is coming from you.

on edit: maybe I could do it this way. If a white person is articulate, I will feel free to tell him so. Otherwise, I will violate my own principle of saying encouraging, complimentary words to people when appropriate because the other person will consider it an insult. From now on, only white people can be praised for being articulate.

[kwassa]

158. Like I said before, go ahead and ignore the point of the conversation.

It is not what "articulate" means to you, it is what "articulate" means in a specific context to African-Americans.

It is not a COMPLIMENT in that context!

Get it? Didn't think so.

[ima_sinnic]

160. so just because someone hears something the way they want,

whether or not it was intended that way, everybody should just refrain from going there?

in a couple of weeks a black graduate student is giving a seminar. If she does a good job, should I not say (just as I would to a white person if it were true), "you spoke very well. You didn't hem and haw, you got the point, you spoke clearly. You articulated the major points beautifully." No, I guess I shouldn't. She will be the poorer for it, not knowing that I (and how many others) actually thought her public speaking skill was excellent, but were afraid to tell her.

[kwassa]

166. Most African-Americans hear it this way.

Do you choose to ignore it?

It is not just "someone", it is most of a major ethnic group in this country.

You can complement your black graduate's performance all you want. There is nothing wrong with "you spoke very well. You didn't hem and haw, you got the point, you spoke clearly. You articulated the major points beautifully." That is fine.

"You're so articulate!" is not, because African-Americans constantly experience it as those it were a freakish oddity for them to be articulate. There is nothing to prevent you from using a wide variety of other complementary words to describe your student's performance.

[bettyellen]

176. it's considered more professional to keep your comments focused on the work, not the person

and it's more productive to focus on what's working and what isn't than labeling a person.

[rpgamerd00d]

181. They just don't get it.

Its a shame, really.

[fishwax]

226. well, if one knows there is a high chance of it being taken negatively, then why say it if you're

trying to be positive? Just to prove a point? Do you not understand that it's offensive, do you deny that it's offensive, or do you simply not care that it's offensive.

You're long quote, of course, is very different from saying: "wow, you're articulate," or, I don't know: "With your presentation we've seen the first mainstream African American graduate student who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking girl." My guess: she'd be offended if you said that.

[ima_sinnic]

240. if I thought THAT, of course I wouldn't say it. DUH!

--but guess what, it wouldn't be. because I don't think that way, and I don't convey that kind of message.

on edit: rest of message deleted for snark factor

[fishwax]

252. that's priceless

I don't convey that kind of message.

on edit: rest of message deleted for snark factor

:rofl:

Anyway, I'm sure you would have more tact than Biden, and I didn't imply that you ever would think or say such a thing. My point is, there is a difference between what Biden said (which is what started this whole debate) and what you claimed you wouldn't be able to say because it might be offensive. Your theoretical feedback was not the same as simply calling an African American articulate.

[ima_sinnic]

115. this controversy over the word "articulate" is first I've heard of it

I am married to a black man from Jamaica. He is very INarticulate because of insufficient education and a learning disability that gives him problems with learning correct English. I am a member of a university community and talk to students every day who are every race and run the gamut of articulateness. I also work as a copy editor for ESL students and see every shade of articulateness. I know articulate when I see it.

[kwassa]

154. He is not African-American but a different cultural group.

I am married to a black woman from the United States who is highly-educated Ivy League graduate, and works at a senior professional level. She saw this in an instant.

Your husband is from a different culture and his experiences are probably quite different.

I have no doubt that you know an articulate individual when you meet one. It is not the issue that one is articulate; it is the suggestion that when a black person is articulate, that comment carries with it, for black people, that it is unusual for a black person to be articulate.

[ima_sinnic]

162. yes, he is from another culture and grew up speaking patois

and is notedly inarticulate to English-speaking ears. so, yes, that was probably an unfair example.

The idea that it is "unusual" for a black person to be articulate had never really occurred to me, I have not thought of it that way. And I certainly wouldn't imply it if I said so.

[Scout1071]

168. You got it.

I really feel good about this....you got the point that the reason it is seen as having a racial innuendo is because it seems a compliment because it's so extraordinary. And we know you wouldn't imply it, but many people do - knowingly and unknowingly.

Thanks for the honest discussion.

[merh]

107. You're pretty smart for a liberal!

:hi:

And I love ya! :hug:

:loveya:

[piedmont]

118. Oh no! We have to get rid of "smart!" nt

[merh]

127. How about "you're pretty sharp, for a liberal?"

Will that work? :shrug:

[ima_sinnic]

122. "Al Sharpton is incredibly articulate"

I said this very thing about Mr. Sharpton, IN COMPARISON TO THE OTHER CANDIDATES and even to other people in general, not to Black people alone, when he first started campaigning in 2000. So apparently I wasn't the only one who noticed--was it wrong of me to say so?

[bettyellen]

129. I have had people tell me that saying I was incredibly smart and competent for a woman

was in no way sexist. and they were SHOCKED it wasn't taken just as a complement.
now somewhere deep in that heap of steaming mysogynistic bullshit, they did mean to say something nice about me, i can acknowledge that. but i have to consider the source and not accept something that denigrates women in general as something positive. if i were an egotistical, self serving asshole, i guess i might have been flattered.

[ima_sinnic]

131. well, anything with "for a whatever" attached to it is patronizing

and ignorant. It just shows stereotypical, insensitive thinking. It's the "for a ..." that is offensive.

[ProfessorGAC]

135. It's Pretty Hard To Miss The Implication, Isn't It?

It's not what's said, but usually how it's said and the intent behind it that matter. Words are just words. Intent and inflection are 95%+, i think.
The Professor

[bettyellen]

146. but Biden prefaced his compliments with for an African American...

so I'm not seeing much of a difference.
I think if he actually meant well, he would have complimented Obama's performance in particular, instead of objectifying him.

[ima_sinnic]

150. yes, that's why it was distasteful, it was patronizing--why did he even

have to mention his race at all?

[bettyellen]

156. there ya go.

i think there's a secret hope there that people will see Obama as
phenomeonal compared to other blacks instead of phenomenal compared to other candidates. why would anybody need to be reminded Barack is black? yet, it'll keep happening, i'm sure.

[ProfessorGAC]

133. OK

You're not smart and talented! Nothing misogynistic there! Of course, it's no less insulting :evilgrin:

Sorry bettyellen. I just had to. It seemed we need to lighten up this thread a pinch.

And since i am what you described in your last sentence, i figured it ought to be me to lighten it up.
GAC

[Jonathan50]

144. Is it then impossible for a caucasian to complement a black person

What word or combination of words are then acceptable for a caucasian to use when they wish to compliment a black person on anything other than their ability at sports?

I'm really not trying to be snarky even though I know it sounds that way.

[NewJeffCT]

152. It's the way things are said

If Biden said that Obama was more articulate than the other presidential candidates in the race, that is fine, and it is a heck of a lot different than saying he is more articulate/clean than other African Americans.

Yes, Biden was trying to compliment Obama - but, the way it was said was just awful.

[yardwork]

165. When complimenting a person, don't imply that they are unusual for "their group"

In other words, if you want to compliment a woman for her abilities as an engineer, don't say, "She's the first woman who's good at engineering!"

If you wish to compliment a man for being a good father, don't say, "He's the first man who actually cares about his kids!"

Gay man? Probably best not to say, "He's really brave for a homosexual!"

Lesbian? Maybe rethink saying, "She's got terrific style for a dyke!"

The point is - anytime a person compares another person to the supposed stereotypes of their "group," it is inherently an insult - both to the "group" and to the individual. It's perpetuating a stereotype. Biden's said that Obama is "the first mainstream (whatever that means) African-American who is..." then listed a bunch of stereotypes long associated with insults to black people - that they are inarticulate, that they don't have "clean" records, etc.

That's why it's an insult.

[kwassa]

167. Nicely put.

[Jonathan50]

180. I understand that part, making comparisons.

But I have read several people on this thread who I assume to be black complaining about simply being called "articulate" with no mention of any comparison being made.

If I as a caucasian tell a black person "you're well informed" is that going to be considered an insult? Is that statement implying that most black people are not well informed?

From my point of view, most Americans, black or white are not "well informed". My own daughter who is on the Dean's list in college I don't consider "well informed" about many of the things that I care about, mostly politics.

[bettyellen]

184. if you act suprised that a person you just met is articulate or well informed, they may assume

that it's racist or sexist based on the fact your presumption is based on some sort of looks-ism.... and own past experiences (and trust me every woman and person of color has had them)
of course the truth maybe just that you're a presumptuous asshole or don't get out very much.
if you'd like to avoid this, trying commenting on the content and not the person. much easier to avoid offending someone that way.

[Karenina]

189. Hey Bettyellen!! You have articulated the PERFECT SOLUTION!!!

When in doubt...

Comment on the content and not the person.

That word... "articulate" makes my skin crawl. HISTORICALLY for me PERSONALLY it transports the stealth vibration of a racist slur. CONSCIOUS OR OTHERWISE. Defending one's own past use of it being oblivious to its undertones is one thing. Becoming hostile and belligerent upon being informed is really quite another matter. The plethora of raging racist posts on the subject makes my stomach churn.

That said, in context Biden knew EXACTLY what he was doing. He insulted Clinton and Edwards outright, then had "glowing praise" for Obama while reminding everyone of his race. I do believe he intended it. I don't believe he anticipated the blowback.

And NOW we have another storm brewing with the Snickers ad. Same kind of denial going on there. Same blindness and deafness to the undercurrent.

I truly believe the lack of empathy and inability of many Americans to see things from the perspective of another is a HUGE CONTRIBUTING FACTOR to the continuing carnage their gubmint is able to perpetrate around the world.

[Jonathan50]

194. I'm genuinely surprised when I meet a well informed person

I live in one of the redder areas of one of the reddest of the red states.

I'ts a genuine shock to meet someone I consider well informed, no matter what color or sex they are.

Guess I will give up compliments altogether, it's just too risky nowadays.

What a shame :(

[Karenina]

196. You DO that.

:eyes:

[bettyellen]

224. you ignore the solution right in front of you? and claim to be so smart? stubborn and self righteous

is boring and sad. i would advise you to get out of that hellhole (lots of well informed people round these parts, great lively conversation all day long) but it sounds like you prefer being miserable, as long as youre doing things your way. LOL. honestly. where's your stubbornness getting you? nowhere fast.

[fishwax]

231. that's a cop-out. Listening is hard work, but it's worth it n/t

[fishwax]

229. It really isn't difficult at all, Jonathan50

When you find out that a word or a way of wording something is offensive, then don't use it anymore. Should you be talking to someone and compliment them and they appear to be offended, say something like: "I appear to have upset you, and I apologize. I'm not sure what it was I said that offended you, but it was not my intent, and I would appreciate it if you could explain to me so I can avoid making such a gaffe in the future." Then: listen.

Welcome to DU, Jonathan50 :hi:

[Madspirit]

179. Yay The Times...

Whoohoohoo I love this. I will send it around.
Madspirit

[Bucky]

192. That's a very well reasoned article... for a woman writer

Maybe her husband helped.

[VOX]

195. Bucky, I want you to go to your room right now!

Now, sit in that corner and think about what you said.

That's right, it was damn funny! :bounce:

:toast:

[laureloak]

206. Being called articulte is a compliment and I intend to continue

using it. If anyone takes offense at it, too bad. You just missed a good thing.

[Karenina]

215. Please continue using the N-word too.

Why bother worrying how your words affect another? Such a pity those with whom you may have found succor are no longer available on this thread.

[laureloak]

243. I dont use the N word. But if I compliment someone by saying

they are articulate then they can either take it or leave it. I'm not walking on eggshells when the truth is that anything anyone says can be twisted. Take my Daddy's advice: Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. If someone compliments your command of thought/language by describing you as articulate, it is a compliment. Take it as such and go on.

[Karenina]

249. Words delivered with hostility

conscious or otherwise, are rarely taken by the recipient as "compliments." I do find a self-centered, mean streak in those who insist that caring about how a communication is received is somehow of no concern. You apparently really don't give a shit how anyone else feels (especially one of "them" who should be honored that someone of your stature would condescend to speak at all).

[laureloak]

251. Like I said, take it or leave it. Your choice.

[Karenina]

256. I prefer to avoid bigots whenever possible.

Tschüß!!! :hi:

[fishwax]

232. well that sounds nice and passive-aggressive

Complimenting someone in a manner that you know is likely to cause them offense doesn't seem a good thing at all.

[laureloak]

244. They can get their ass off their shoulders and choose not

to be offended by a compliment. I don't owe it to anybody to pussyfoot over such silliness.

[fishwax]

253. like I said: passive-aggressive. If you know there's a high chance of something being received

negatively, why say it if you're trying to be positive? Just to prove a point? Apparently, when you give a compliment, it's all about you.

And of course you don't owe it to anybody to pussyfoot over such silliness, but effective communication requires a recognition of the needs of the user/listener as well as the producer/speaker. If you continuously present information in a way that you know will be received differently than you intend, you aren't really trying to communicate effectively.

If you know someone is bothered by being called a specific word and you continue to call them that word, don't pretend it's because you're trying to compliment them. That makes no sense at all. It's like calling someone by a nickname that they hate--and you know that they hate--and pretending it's just a sign of affection. It's anything but.

[lvx35]

207. Oh God.

“Al Sharpton is incredibly articulate,” said Tricia Rose, professor of Africana Studies at Brown University. “But because he speaks with a cadence and style that is firmly rooted in black rhetorical tradition you will rarely hear white people refer to him as articulate.”

So is Tricia Rose a racist? She called Al Sharpton articulate. we assume no, because we assume she is black.. but what if the "rare" thing happened and a white person called Al Sharpton articulate, as she indicates? Would it be racist? Would it be true?

The idea that english words take on different meanings based on the race of the people saying the words is racist in itself. Words take on meanings based on INTENT. Now you can debate Bidens intent all you want, but the idea that he is white and said "articulate" isn't sufficient to indicate that he is racist.

[omega minimo]

220. I apologize on behalf of Clueless, Self-Righteous White People, all of them, ever.

It's not that hard to grasp the concept and the irrational rationales for not doing so seem to hinge on "intention".......... "If I saw no harm in it, then there couldn't POSSIBLY be any harm." This has come to seem related to the "DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO" rage that inhabits the hearts and minds of many "liberals" or Democrats who identify more with the poisoned "anti-PC" era than they do with the previous era of progessivism, tolerance and nationalized awareness of the VALUE of respecting all in the American melting pot.


It's too bad that little post up at the top that got so much feedback was deleted. I read it this morning and don't remember it as being offensive as much as clueless-- in a way that is representative and informative.

The post made a comparison to "SOME women" and the reverse-non-logic of blaming the victim for "being a victim." :crazy: :puke: Yes, the illogic that was used did eqate the experience of African Americans and women and rightly so. The same hateful (right wing/dittohead/freeper) assbackwards logic is used to try to SHAME people into not standing up for themselves. And I say SKIP THAT. :evilfrown:



These pompous insistent attitudes of SOME "folks" to REFUSE to even CONSIDER the other point of view and what is being SHARED here, of a FACT of the experience of a LARGE COMMUNITY with a common skin color, is frankly, embarrassing. SOME White people need to get a clue.

The people who are turning this around-- where Stephanie has provided some clarification and confirmation (!) of why "articulate" is so highly CHARGED when applied to black people-- and missing the point on purpose, isolating the word from the overall context of Biden's quote and the context of the discussion (HOW WHITE PEOPLE TALK ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE AND OCCASIONALLY ARE CLUELESS, EVEN IF "UNINTENTIONAL" OR "WELL MEANING" -- IT HAPPENS) and play this stupid, stick up the ass game of

"OOOOOOoohhhhh I had NO IDEA that that term was consdired an INSULT I'd better be CAREFUL of what I SAY from now on because GEEZOHPEETS shucks and gosh darn SKIPPY you just never know when those little colored folks (or women) are gonna get their KNICKERS IN A TWIST about an ADJECTIVE boyohboy they much REALLY have an inferiority complex SO DEEP that they HOPE that racism (or sexism) CONTINUES so they can PLAY the VICTIM.............."
:sarcasm:



That's just absolutely hateful and that sort of White Privilege and White Arrogance and White Cluelessness is disgusting and makes us all look bad.







It's simple and it's spelled R-E-S-P-E-C-T. It goes both ways. That's how it works. Or doesn't.

[Name removed]

221. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Karenina]

223. Thank you. It's the impenetrable denial and ridicule...

That's just absolutely hateful and that sort of White Privilege and White Arrogance and White Cluelessness is disgusting...

[omega minimo]

227. It's fear. Maybe more than fear of blacks/women/TheOther, it's the fear of responsibility

I'm sure that "Deleted Message" made that point.

[Karenina]

242. That abdication of responsibility is PRECISELY

what fuels American citizens' tacit support for the carnage in Iraq.

TimeforChange NAILS IT here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard

[Karenina]

255. OOPS! I mean here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x133123

[Stephanie]

238. thank you

for a perfect distillation of this thread. :hi:

[omega minimo]

239. and others. thanks for helping the healing.

:pals:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

247. I can't express how HAPPY I am to read that. Thank you.

:yourock:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

248. I love this thread. It shows who are the fuckwits who can barely hide their bigotry & condescension.

And it also shows my spider-sense is as well-tuned as ever. No surprises.

[Karenina]

257. EVERYBODY TAKE IT TO THE TOP... WE'RE GONNA...

(Brothers Johnson. 80's shit. TIMELESS SHIT).

GONNA PARTY, TILL THE MORNING LIGHT!