Why is there a torture "debate?"

[rateyes]

Waterboarding is torture. Period. End.of.sentence. Why would we even engage in debate on that question?

Torture is a war crime. Period. End.of.sentence.

George W. Bush, Condoleeza Rice, Dick Cheney, et al, authorized waterboarding and other "enhanced interrogation techniques" (Torture by any other name is still torture). Period. End.of.sentence. There is no question they did this. Period. End.of.sentence.

The above forementioned people and others are, by definition, war criminals. Period. End.of.sentence.

The Convention Against Torture treaty, which is, according to the Constitution of the U.S., part of the "supreme law of the land," REQUIRES the U.S. to investigate and prosecute war crimes. Period. End.of.sentence.

So, WHY is the Justice Department dragging its feet on this trying to decide whether or not to prosecute these people. If the administration fails to investigate and prosecute war criminals, they will become war criminals.

Why the debate?

[spanone]

1. i'm with you, i don't care if the pope knew....war crimes were committed

[MannyGoldstein]

2. First Off, Half of Americans Think Torture Is Sometimes Appropriate And Effective

Second, under Clinton, Holder apparently signed off on outsourced torture - he admitted it the other day. I don't think he'll be prosecuting others for signing off on torture.

[OHDEM]

8. Naomi Klein addressed that very point on Maher's show...

...last night. She said that by prosecuting torture, we will show the people who think it's okay exactly why it is not acceptable and why it was illegal to begin with.

Holder doesn't have to be involved in the investigation. Independent investigator set up by Congress to look into everything and everyone.

[MannyGoldstein]

11. I Wish I Shared Naomi's Optimism On American's Ability To Learn

I pretty well gave up on that when Bush was re-(s)elected.

[OHDEM]

12. I hear that! nt

[leftstreet]

42. If that's true, would they support making torture legal?

:shrug:

[realisticphish]

3. I've always wondered

why anyone even talks about the Geneva convention, or the convention against torture, or anything like that.

Legal, schmegal, we shouldn't fucking torture anyone! If we're going to be a "beacon of liberty," then we should act like it. Even if torture is legal, we shouldn't do it. Hell, ESPECIALLY if it's legal.

[msongs]

4. because "stern letters" and toothless subpoenas are not effective strategies? nt

[frogcycle]

5. why is there an evolution debate? why is there a global warming debate?

because the vast majority of people are dumber than two rocks

[KharmaTrain]

6. "American Exceptionalism"...

This country has long lived in its own bubble. We all grew up with the propaganda of how our government and country (depending who was in power) is always right. Our media always covers international stories as how it affects us...many times with little, if any, historical or cultural background. It's an arrogance that some have taken to mean being special or that what we say or do here is above that of the rest of the world.

Some 50% (or so the polls say), they either believe that the torture was all well and good or that there was some kind of justification. I firmly disagree and want International law to be enforced here. But you and I are aren't where the action is...it's that 10 or 20% of the other 50% that is looking for that justification. It's the "political middle"...just like in an election...win them and win the day. There's also the fear that if you alienate them by being "soft on terror" this administration loses clout and opens the door for the corporate media to swarm down on them.

It's a shame that there needs to be any debate on this matter at all. It's clean cut. Cut we're also expecting those who built and operate the system that did the abusing to turn on a dime. It just isn't gonna happen without relentless pressure on our Congresscritters to demand International laws to be honored. It's nudging that 10-20% to call for an open investigation.

With a lot on the plate...and more on the say, the Obama administration is walking lightly on what is sure to be a highly partisan process. The fear is distracting from pushing through health care or economic reform because all one sees and hears is the back and forth about torture and how it's "kept us safe". This isn't a case that should be played out in the media, but in the courts.

I really don't see the DOJ dragging its feet as much as finding them. Remember, this agency was totally politicized by Monica Goodling and Fredo Gonzalez. Holder has had tough going in getting his people confirmed and in place...let's get his full team in place and then discuss if he's dragging feet.

Cheers...

[The Magistrate]

7. Well Said, Sir!

[KharmaTrain]

10. And Thank You As Well, Sir...

I musta grabbed the "smart" coffee this morning.

:toast:

[rateyes]

15. I hear you. But, this ought to be black letter law. nt

[KharmaTrain]

17. It's Sad We Even Have To Debate...

It IS Black letter law. Our government is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions and the Prague Conventions...there have been several resolutions passed by Congress outlawing torture. But to some, this is another "is is" game. If the torture "kept us safe", then the goalpost of torture is moved. Or if it was only done this manner or that one...professionalizing...then somehow that escapes the definition. It's parsing at its worse and those who attempt it are war criminals trying to cover up their crimes and complicity.

Let ALL the evidence out...let's see "safe" we were kept...and how "professional" this torture was. Then let's see them parse...in the dock at the Hague. I've long lamented that this situation was beyond our political system, and we're seeing that to be the case...

[PufPuf23]

9. Foot dragging time wasting denial in the hope

the crimes will go away and the depth and inter-related rot in our social institutions and entitled economic elite.

[azul]

13. To put American exceptionalism to the ultimate test?

To test that this country is ready or willing to be a rogue state and give up on the rule of law and international law? A failing grade means what, unsustainable empire marches us off a cliff?

The dangerous hubris and conceit of the bully that escapes all bounds because it is ignorant and powerful enough to do so.

Divide us and propagandize us until we have to all march along or else? This is a clear case of historic international law in human civilization.

--------------


No one likes us
I don't know why.
We may not be perfect,
But heaven knows we try.
But all around
even our old friends put us down
Let's drop the big one
And see what happens.

We give them money,
But are they grateful?
No, they're spiteful, and they're hateful.
They don't respect us, so let's surprise them
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them.

-Randy Newman

[Solly Mack]

14. Exactly. There is nothing to debate.

War crimes were committed. Prosecute!

[Gregorian]

16. And what about attacking Iraq in the first place? Hundreds of thousands of dead.

That is a far greater crime.

In my opinion, this discussion of torture is a way of ignoring the bigger picture. Not to minimize the criminal acts that happened at the undoubtedly many camps we have, but perhaps a million people were killed in that invasion against a nonthreatening country. Congress approved force. Big deal. It's still a crime.

I guess when half of a country is snoozing and watching fake news, anything goes. Well, outside of our borders it's a different story.

Yes, I agree with your post. And then some.

[ControlledDemolition]

34. Agreed 100%. Unfortunately a great deal more than half of the world is watching fake news. n/t

(Edit: Fix typo.)

[greeneyedboy]

18. Exactly. The idea that there's a "debate" = ipso facto loss of our moral compass. n/t

[jtrockville]

19. I feel the same about a "truth commission". WE KNOW THE TRUTH

The United States of America TORTURED PEOPLE. What more do we need to know?

[ControlledDemolition]

35. May I suggest Arlen Specter as the commission head? n/t

[pleah]

20. K&R There shouldn't even be a debate. The bastards admitted they approved

torture. To me, that means they should be in jail right now!


spelling.:eyes:

[kentuck]

21. Because we have lost our moral bearing.

We can no longer distinguish right from wrong.

[cali]

25. that would be the norm worldwide, posr Nuremberg

sadly, it's hardly unique to this country. And countries don't have "moral bearings"- only individuals do. Nations have laws which they either adhere to or not.

[ContinentalOp]

22. Making it a "debate" is how they win.

As frogcycle asks upthread "why is there an evolution debate? why is there a global warming debate?"

This works two ways. In some cases, it serves to indefinitely delay action: Schwarzenegger's recent "let's start a debate about pot decriminalization" or people who want to debate health care. As though people haven't already been debating these issues for decades. It's a way to pretend like you're listening to or doing something about an issue while really postponing action to some indefinite future date that never comes.

The other way it works is to create a sense of legitimacy for fringe ideas. A million people say that water is wet but one kook says that may not be true, therefore it's "controversial" and there's a "debate" about the wetness of water. See abortion, torture, evolution, global warming, etc.

[pat_k]

29. kick

[ControlledDemolition]

36. One of several favored FOX News tactics is to lead with.... 'Some people say....'. n/t

[cali]

23. because there are millions who justify it, don't think it's wrong or illegal

and in short, don't see things the way we do. And because country after country have ignored the convention against torture.


and no, if they fail to prosecute they won't become war criminals.

[Usrename]

43. Participation in torture is a war crime.

If they thwart domestic and international law regarding torture, then they are war criminals.

[Vinca]

24. Why isn't this a 24/7 story on MSM?

This morning, as I was listening to MSNBC report about the damn plane over Manhattan for the 6th or 7th time, I started to wonder if there was a story I had never, ever heard reported in between the missing white girls and Madonna/Britney stories. No, it wasn't the fancy dancy mustard story. They covered that. It was the fact people have been killed by agents of this country while being tortured. Not a peep.

[azul]

27. The watchdog press has been corrupted by sponsor and owners.

"You Don't Understand Our Audience"

By John Hockenberry
*****
This was one in a series of lessons I learned about how television news had lost its most basic journalistic instincts in its search for the audience-driven sweet spot, the "emotional center" of the American people. Gone was the mission of using technology to veer out onto the edge of American understanding in order to introduce something fundamentally new into the national debate. The informational edge was perilous, it was unpredictable, and it required the news audience to be willing to learn something it did not already know. Stories from the edge were not typically reassuring about the future. In this sense they were like actual news, unpredictable flashes from the unknown. On the other hand, the coveted emotional center was reliable, it was predictable, and its story lines could be duplicated over and over. It reassured the audience by telling it what it already knew rather than challenging it to learn. This explains why TV news voices all use similar cadences, why all anchors seem to sound alike, why reporters in the field all use the identical tone of urgency no matter whether the story is about the devastating aftermath of an earthquake or someone's lost kitty.

www.technologyreview.com/Infotech/19845/page3/


The news has morphed into a type of hypnosis to sell stuff and nonsense. They got orders not to rock the gravy boat and shoot for the wallet. Sell-out press.

[greeneyedboy]

26. "Some say near-fatal drowning of POWs is wrong; others not. Discuss!" n/t

[ControlledDemolition]

37. Well, there are two sides to this debate! n/t

[lunatica]

28. Hell! The Supreme Court selecting Bush in 2000 broke the law and

the ensuing actions prove that that was the beginning of the trashing of the Constitution and the rule of law in the United States. It didn't take long to go from there to being war criminals. Less than a year.

[pat_k]

30. The pretense that prosecution is "open question" just promotes pro-torture propaganda

From something I posted the other day:

. . .
The web of bizarro-world group think driving the beltway denial of this reality is mind-boggling. (To paraphrase Turley what they are doing is akin to calling a bank robbery an "alternative method of cash withdrawal.")

We know the key conspirators. We know who participated in the cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment of captives (it's all in government records). The only open question is whether or not a given suspect has a legitimate "affirmative defense." . . .

The devastating consequences of their dereliction isn't limited to the mockery they are making of criminal justice.

• It makes Obama a benevolent dictator who can "take away" or "give us back" the Constitution; who may opt to "ban" or "continue" the torture of persons in U.S. custody at whim. (When high officials violate law, the required response is to prosecute to enforce the law, not issue executive orders that duplicate the law.)


• It puts the men and women of our armed services at risk. (They are stripped of the protection from mistreatment afforded by our adherence to treaty.)


• It makes ALL CIA agents war criminals in the public mind. (Even if a vast majority opted to "just say no," the assertion that suspending and prosecuting those who participated would somehow destroy the CIA's ability to "protect us," implies that most were either involved or approved.)


• It validates Cheney's "position" that their criminal program was (or could be) "legal." (If it were so clearly a crime, bush and cheney would certainly be in the dock by now -- and would have been impeached years ago.)


• It politicizes criminal justice (a very real consequence), while legitimizing the meme that prosecution would (or could) "criminalize policy" (an outcome our criminal justice system is designed to eliminate.)


• It promotes the torturers' propaganda that prosecution would be "retribution." (Which requires one to believe that the rules of criminal procedure are a joke and incapable of producing a verdict that is free of passion and prejudice.)


• It endorses the fascist fantasy that cruel, degrading, and inhumane treatment is not worthy of judicial determination, and should rather be left as a matter of political opinion (open to "discussions" and "debate" and "agreements to disagree").


• It tells the victims of torture -- or for those who died in the process, the families they are survived by -- that we don't consider the horrors they were subjected to in our name to be worthy of the "distraction" of a full public accounting. It extends their ordeal.

Given the destructive consequences of their immoral and irrational refusal to even acknowledge that the crimes are crimes, it's hard (impossible?) to imagine what horrible consequences they imagine would result from prosecution. And like with Saddam's WMD, the "Chicken Littles" describe no mechanism by which this "political mushroom cloud" would "tear the nation apart."
. . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=446081">Original Post

[lib2DaBone]

31. It's not torture..it's .."enhanced Interrogation" .

See.. doesn't that make it all better?

It's not a troop build up... it's a "Surge". Are you getting this yet?

[ControlledDemolition]

39. Super-size me! Collaterally damage me!! Freedomize my mustard!!! n/t

[ControlledDemolition]

40. Sorry, I forget about... 'Terminate with extreme prejudice'. n/t

[ProSense]

32. There isn't a torture debate.

There is a prosecution debate: Some are advocating Bush officials are above the law, other's are advocating investigations without prosecution, and another group is advocating a criminal investigation.

[Wednesdays]

33. K&R

:kick:

[CANDO]

38. That's the classic right wing tactic on everything they disagree with.

Challenge it so as to make it debatable. You name the issue, they turn it into a debate so their troops have talking points to go with. In their world, if it's debatable it's just a matter of opinion on policy issues. "No crime committed here!"

[elshiva]

41. K&R End Waterboarding. End Torture. No fucking debate.