2nd day camp says Pa. swim club treated it well

[wisteria]

A second day camp whose children were turned away by a Philadelphia-area swim club later accused of racism says its group was treated well.

Joanne Rosenthal of the Storybook Children's Center in northeast Philadelphia said Friday she believed The Valley Club in Huntingdon Valley when it says her group was turned away because of crowding.


Rosenthal says at least half her group of about 25 were minorities





http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20090710/US.Swim.Club.Minorities/

There are always two sides to every story. People should wait until all the facts are in before just jumping to conclusions. An investigation is ongoing. Could it be that some people were quick in making asspumptions?

[FiveGoodMen]

1. Treated well means being given an excuse?

[wisteria]

7. If they don't have room they don't have room. What don't you understand.

There are laws in place that state certain occupancy rules and regulations for fire and other safety reasons.

[FiveGoodMen]

10. What I don't understand is how a camp paid a fee to use the pool

without any discussions of how many kids there would be.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

13. Or how many kids they'd bring at any given time -

I posted elsewhere that I'd seen a photo of the pool.

It's small. No way it could accommodate sixty kids at once..............

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. I saw a photo too and it looked like there was plenty of room

[Tangerine LaBamba]

40. Which photo did you see?

Got a link?

I'm gonna look for the photo I saw.............

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. It was posted here several times

That pool is huge.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

44. I'm looking, but I just found this:

http://www.thevalleyclub.com/

[wisteria]

71. That seems like a reasonable statement. n/t

[Tangerine LaBamba]

47. Was this the picture you saw?

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. No it was an aerial shot and showed several outbuildings

that were dwarfed by the size of the pool.

[nc4bo]

83. This one from KYW before they changed it...

I also so that particular shot on the Rachel Maddow show this evening.

[proud2BlibKansan]

118. Yes that's it

Thanks!

[wisteria]

18. That is a good point, I would assume that is going to be part of the investigation. n/t

[Lilyeye]

109. Why didn't the guy just say that originally...

instead of this crap about changing the complexion and atmosphere of the club?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

2. One of the facts omitted

from the stories, but was included in the first reports of these kids being turned away, was that they were sixty kids - sixty - and there were something like three or four adults to supervise them. Apparently the kids hit the water at full speed, as kids will, and the parents went nuts, asking how come they weren't being supervised.

Which is exactly what I, as a parent, would have asked. And I would have yanked my kids out of the pool, too.

I don't think race had anything to do with it, but it surely was spun that way, with the omission of the absence of adult supervision....................

[LynneSin]

4. Other fact omitted - The director of the swim club was an Obama supporter and Civil Rights activist

That's the guy who talked about the 'change in complexion' quote

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/erica/2009/07/philadelphia-racism-story-an-o.php?ref=reccafe

John Duesler, President of Valley Swim Club, wrote in a letter to the group that a lot of kids might change the "complexion" and atmosphere of the club. (A questionable choice of words if there ever was one.) So this looks like a pretty clear racism story.

But here's the thing--if it's the same John Duesler, this guy is an Obama supporter and peace activist. He was on the team that set up a blood drive (Opositive) to celebrate Obama's inauguration, and here's a link to a peace seminar in which he participated.

http://peaceactionpa.org/Ethnic_Peace_Fest_20Jan08.html

_______________________________________

The guy made a bad quote although complexion but then again so did Joe Biden when he called Obama "Clean and Articulate". Plus complexion has a multitudes of meaning including this that I found from Meriam-Webster:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/complexion

Main Entry: com·plex·ion
Pronunciation: \kəm-ˈplek-shən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Medieval Latin complexion-, complexio, from Latin, combination, from complecti
Date: 14th century
1: the combination of the hot, cold, moist, and dry qualities held in medieval physiology to determine the quality of a body
2 a: an individual complex of ways of thinking or feeling b: a complex of attitudes and inclinations
3: the hue or appearance of the skin and especially of the face <a dark complexion>
4: overall aspect or character <by changing the complexion of the legislative branch — Trevor Armbrister>
— com·plex·ion·al \-shnəl, -shə-nəl\ adjective
— com·plex·ioned \-shənd\ adjective

_____________________________________

Now here's the thing - I'm not suprised about the reaction of some of the parents and that's something to be considered. But I'm curious to see how this plays out before we start making a final judgement.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

6. Duke LaCrosse team -

we don't learn really fast, do we?

I hope this swimming pool thing get straightened out and cleared up quickly. Those kids - the kids who were turned away - were very upset. I saw one little boy on TV last night, and his reaction brought sudden and unexpected tears to my eyes.

What really sucks is that these kids have been pawns in some idiots misapprehension. And how are those kids going to be healed now?

[LynneSin]

28. I don't second guess for one minute that racist comments were made by pool members

I'm just not ready to go out on a limb and say that the Swim Club or the Director are racist in general

[wisteria]

30. I agree with what you say. n/t

[nc4bo]

87. Still this very same Obama supporting director was influenced by complaints from parents

right?

Reading along in this thread, it seems there were other day camps that swam at the club. No problems there. No complaints. No kiddies told to go home....

I dunno, I'm not feeling this club one bit.

[wisteria]

8. You make a lot of sense. n/t

[Tangerine LaBamba]

11. Thank you -

I neglected to include in my post that I saw a picture of the pool, and it's very small. I was surprised, frankly, that anyone would have agreed to taking on sixty kids - in one group - on any contract. There are pools at some houses of my friends that are larger than the one in issue.

Dropping that many kids - and crazed, happy kids, who can be as annoying as unhappy, troubled kids - into a small pool all at once was a recipe for disaster, regardless of anyone's race.

This is a terrible situation, and I hope it all gets straightened out. Mostly, I hope someone works with those kids and makes sure they understand that it wasn't a matter of race. That's so vital........................

[MajorChode]

14. I've worked activities for kids where lots of them are involved

and the biggest problem is so many people just drop their kids off and not enough adults participate to supervise them.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

16. One of the DU regulars here

yesterday told me about a young girl who showed up with a bunch of her younger siblings at the library where our DU friend is head librarian, and just assumed that she (the librarian) would act as babysitter.

Our DU friend made it very clear to the young girl exactly who the babysitter was.

But, as you say, where are the parents?

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. where are the parents?

At work. This is a summer camp.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

43. Adults -

not parents - adults. You know, the people who get paid to take care of these kids.

That place didn't have adequate lifeguards in order to allow that number of kids at one time. Laws have limits.

It was badly handled, it appears, from the beginning. These kids should have been broken down into smaller groups.

But, there were not enough adults there to supervise the kids, and, as I've posted elsewhere, as a mother, I'd have yanked my kids out of the pool, too, if sixty thoroughly happy and excited kids hit that pool all at once without adequate oversight..............

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. Why wasn't that made clear when the day care center booked the pool?

I take kids on field trips all the time and nearly every place we go lets us know how many adults we need to bring along.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

53. As the Swim Club tried to explain

in that statement, the link to which I posted, they were sloppy on both sides when negotiating the contract. It should have been spelled out in more precise numbers, kids and adults, and not left unaddressed. Misunderstandings grow into this kind of sideshow, the kind where I'm sure Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson will soon show up.

But, remembering the way people reacted to the allegations made about the Duke lacrosse team, and the final reality of what really happened, should caution everyone to withhold judgment until all the facts are in...................

[wisteria]

68. Excellent points! n/t

[RamboLiberal]

82. That's not what one of the eyewitnesses told Smerconish

The camp kids arrived and got into the pool. Valley Swim Club member and eyewitness Jan told talk radio host Michael Smerconish that the campers were behaving nicely and were well supervised:.

"We came in as the campers were there. I joined campers with my grandson (6). The children were playing. It was very crowded. ... It was important for me to watch him because there were so many children there. It was crowded, but there were at least two adult counselors. The pool had 2 lifeguards on either side of this area of the pool, which is only 3 feet deep. And there was also a supervisor who called these children out when it was time to leave. It was a very orderly dispensement. She called first for the female campers and then the male campers. It was so orderly and so well regulated both by the part of the staff of the camp and the pool, I knew of no problems.

The children were speaking so nicely with one another. They were conversing back and forth in such a nice manner. ... I don't think it would be a big problem that there were a lot of people there."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/parenting/2009/07/black_children_kicked_out_of_p.html?hpid=news-col-blog

Please post your link if you have a different story.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. I'm sure the swim club has lots of black friends.

[wisteria]

9. What is that suppose to mean. That sounds like a inflamatory statement you just made.

You shouldn't go around making assumptions when you don't know the truth.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. I know the guy in charge the other day's a crazy fucking racist.

I know that the fact that they pool may or may not have been nice to other minority kids does not change anything.

What I don't know is why you're trying to apologize for 'em.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

24. You know nothing -

that much is painfully obvious.

Yet, you keep blathering...............

[wisteria]

31. NO, it changes a perception that was cast without hearing about the entire situation. n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. It's just the "I've got lots of black friends" excuse writ large.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

15. That crack contributes nothing,

and shows your ignorance of the facts of the story.

Nice show of stupidity - take a bow.................

[Bluenorthwest]

25. A quip of zero value

as are all your quips. It gets old, that routine.

[Karenina]

5. "asspumptions?" OH MY SIDES, I can barely type...

:spray: :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[wisteria]

12. Obviously, you refuse to see nothing but what you want to see.

And, believe what it is you want too.

That is a crying shame. Not everything is as it is spun or appears and some people like yourself will never be anything but cynical and negative.
:cry: :cry:

[Karenina]

20. Ah don mean no harm, wisterkins

das Wort done struck mah linguistic funnybone so hard, I nearly fell off my swivel!

[anigbrowl]

81. It's not about spin, it's about your unfortunate but amusing misspelling

I laughed too. This is why spellcheck is your friend! it isn't meant to invalidate your reporting, but it does distract from it.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

17. You didn't get the joke?

I thought it was rather sly and very funny.

Sometimes, being rigidly literal can get in the way of a good laugh...........................

[wisteria]

29. Oh, I'm sorry. I took you litererally. n/t

[JVS]

33. LOL

[Number23]

112. lol!

[dolphindance]

19. "Rosenthal says at least half her group of about 25 were minorities"

How many were BLACK though? Racist whites usually have a social strata which they use to "rank" minority groups. Blacks are often at the very bottom.

This recent group got turned away, AND there was racism as well. They saw a bunch of black kids coming in and just freaked.

It's that simple. Don't try to pretty it up.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

21. We'll see. I just want the kids to be ok. If what we heard is true.. the club is DISGUSTING.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

26. Think "Duke lacrosse team,"

and you'll see, when you read the whole story, get the facts, that this is a real snow job..................

[Liquorice]

27. 65 kids is just too many children for one pool. I don't know what

the swim club was thinking in scheduling that many kids at once. It's a shame that it was immediately blown up into a racism issue.

[BlooInBloo]

46. Phew! Thank GOODNESS we found the excuse we're gonna run with!

That was a close one.

[nc4bo]

84. The alternate pool location didn't seem to have a problem accepting those kids.

People keep wanting to make excuses for the inexcusable.

Sad, eh?

[RamboLiberal]

96. And let's not forget they go to the Jewish Community Center Pool

Tues/Thurs which is indoors - they also don't have a problem. Most indoor pools I've ever seen are built for lap swimming so while they are long and sometimes wide with a number of lanes the shallow end is probably not much bigger if at all than Valley Swim Clubs shallow pool.

[wisteria]

98. It was a large school pool and it was going to be empty on the day these children were going to swim

And, they were still trying to work out legal and safety issues. Or perhaps, in you estimation that is an excuse to. Why not just let 65 children who are not good swimmers go swimming without much supervision.

[wisteria]

97. Can you be certain it is an excuse? You don't sound like an inpartial party to me.

Many times things are not as they appear in life. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt until I have enough evidence to make an informed decision-especially about something as important as racism. People get hurt on both sides when accusations are hurled without all the facts being known.

[BlooInBloo]

119. This is life, tiger. Nothing is certain. Well, except that white folks will do almost anything...

to avoid saying other white folks are racist.

Certainty. What an astonishingly high bar you set. :rofl:

[JTFrog]

34. You are still defending this shit?

John Duesler, President of The Valley Swim Club said in a http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Pool-Boots-Kids-Who-Might-Change-the-Complexion.html">statement:

"THERE WAS CONCERN THAT A LOT OF KIDS WOULD CHANGE THE COMPLEXION... AND THE ATMOSPHERE OF THE CLUB"


With a lawsuit on his hands you better believe he's gonna change his story to a safety issue. Too bad he already opened his mouth and showed his true ugliness.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

37. Read the OP,

and then consider that the use of the word "complexion" was, in fact, an unfortunate one, but, in terms of language, it was correct.

If you can't see past that - and you clearly don't have all the facts - well, then watch yourself when you leap to that unfounded assumption you're making - you just landed on your ass....................

[JTFrog]

45. I've landed on my ass enough times to know racism when I see it, no matter how many

deflections and excuses are thrown out there.

I signed the call for an investigation. That's how far on my ass I've landed.

Your signature will also be used to call on the Department of Justice to evaluate suing the facility under federal law. It takes just a moment to do both, here:

http://www.colorofchange.org/swim

full email from colorofchange with links here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6030734&mesg_id=6030734

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. Bingo!

That's where this racist ass lost me.

[MajorChode]

50. Think about that statement for just a minute

Obviously it has a double meaning.

Now, if the intent were really racism, and he made that statement out of that alleged racism, it would have been an incredibly stupid thing to say.

If the intent were simply that the addition of all the kids changed the serenity of the club, it would still be a stupid statement because of the double meaning, but not as stupid as what you allege.

[JTFrog]

57. Stupid is as stupid does. That's why there is an investigation.

State officials said they will investigate accusations of racial discrimination against the swim club.

The Pennsylvania Human Relations Commission will immediately open an investigation into the actions of The Valley Club in the leafy suburb of Huntingdon Valley, chairman Stephen A. Glassman said.

"The rule of law in Pennsylvania is equal opportunity for all, regardless of race," Glassman said Thursday in a written statement released by his office.

"Allegedly, this group was denied the use of a pool based on their race," Glassman said. "If the allegations prove to be true, this is illegal discrimination in Pennsylvania."

-------------------

snip: Several days later, the club refunded the camp's payment without explanation, said Wright, who added that some parents are "weighing their options" on legal action.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31833602/ns/us_news-race_and_ethnicity/

[MajorChode]

78. As well there should be

[wisteria]

99. Oh brother, people do say things in the wrong way without meaning any harm.

The statement was taken out of context and until I see the entire orignal statement, I am going to assume his words were spum to sound worse than what they were or even opposite of what he meant.
Why would you just assume the worse and prejudge this man as being racist?

[JTFrog]

107. You go right ahead and assume his words were "spum".

Meantime in the real world, the state opens an investigation based on the evidence at hand.

Funny how that works, isn't it? :shrug:

[Number23]

113. lol! Oh, this thread is priceless. But for alllll the wrong reasons.

:)

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. You know, when people use the word "complexion" they have a hard time convincing me

they aren't racist.

That's the bottom line.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

39. Then you best enlarge your vocabulary,

because "complexion" is a great word with various meanings, and to limit it to the literal is to miss the many nuanced meanings it has and then you find yourself locked into an uninformed and baseless position.

Read up on the facts, check out the man who owns the place and his political history, and then check out the size of the pool, the number of kids, the number of adults there to supervise them, and see what you think.

You might surprise yourself when you learn the whole story, not just fixate on one word....................

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. Sorry we are just going to have to agree to disagree

I saw this man who was the manager on TV yelling at reporters. He was an ASS. I also heard the kids repeating what the club members had said to them. It was disgusting. I work with kids and I can tell you one thing - they don't make up shit like this. They were treated horribly, made to feel unwelcome and sent away.

I also don't care who these people supported for president. They were cruel to these kids and they are racists.

I hope this club goes out of business after paying off the massive lawsuits they so justly deserve.

[wisteria]

100. Well ,how about the fact that we haven't seen the entire statement.

That should at least make you wonder why the entire comment wasn't printed.

[bbernardini]

52. If 65 kids is too many, then what about this? (from Bucks County Courier-Times c/o Daily Kos)

"Twelve days before the Creative Steps campers were shown the door, Wright said The Valley Club hosted four sixth-grade classes from Rydal East Elementary School in Abington. Only two of the nearly 80 kids were minorities. One of them was Wright's 11-year-old son, Marcus.

A wonderful time was had by all."

[Tangerine LaBamba]

54. In the pool?

Got a link to the article?

[bbernardini]

56. It's a swim club. I don't think they were there for a pinochle tournament.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/news_details/article/28/2009/july/10/a-slap-in-the-face-over-color-of-kids-in-pool.html

[JTFrog]

58. Nail in the coffin. n/t

[Tangerine LaBamba]

60. Thank you for that link -

It's a swim club. And those other buildings on the grounds are just empty? You know that kids like to do other things besides swim during the summer. Like eat. And play all sorts of games. And I guess those buildings are just for storage of the white sheets that the Valley Swim Club owners like to wear when no one is watching, right?

Thank you for the laugh. Nothing like a righteous and befuddled professional liberal without a clue...........

[FiveGoodMen]

62. So I guess none of the 65 black kids could use those other buildings?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

66. I don't know -

do you?

[FiveGoodMen]

73. You're all over this thread acting like you know something

so the burden's on you.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

74. What 'burden'?

You're using big words, and you're using them wrong.

I can voice my opinion as many times as I choose, and your disapproval is worth a bucket of warm spit....................

[bbernardini]

76. Some people aren't happy unless they're proving their imagined superiority over others. nt

[FiveGoodMen]

77. "Tragic" isn't it?

[wisteria]

103. I don't know anyone who fits that description. n/t

[bbernardini]

72. Thank YOU for giving me the chance to exercise the ignore function.

Could you possibly be any more condescending, obnoxious and rude?

[kwassa]

90. your rationalizations are getting emptier and emptier

[Tangerine LaBamba]

92. What?

Did you post something?

There's this echo .................

[wisteria]

102. Those children did not have to be exposed to anythng. Others made this

a public matter. There were any number of honest reasons they could have used to explain the fact that they couldn't use that pool. The camp director made this choice.

[zalinda]

69. Maybe you didn't see some later information

The pool is mostly a deep water pool. Two thirds of the pool is deep water. In order to use the other 2/3's of the pool, the child would have to have passed a swimming test. Eighty kids in an entire pool is not too bad, when they know how to swim. Put 60 kids (who you don't know can swim or not) in 1/3 of the pool, with few adults, and you have a very tense and panicky situation.

Most of these kids were used to the public pools which most aren't deep water pools at all. Should the Valley Club just sucked it up until one of these kids drowned?

zalinda

[Tangerine LaBamba]

75. Uh-oh -

Now you've introduced a salient and practical fact, and all the Professional Liberals are going to be upset because that information does not fit with their self-induced fit of righteous indignation over what they know is pure and punishable racism.

That's just asking for trouble...........

:sarcasm:

[JTFrog]

79. Why do you assume 80 white kids can swim and the 60 (who you don't know can swim or not) can't?

What EXACTLY is the point you are getting at here?

[zalinda]

108. First of all, I don't know if the 80 kids were white

what I do know is that they were 6th graders and that the managers son was one of them. It just may be that these kids had been to the pool before, so they knew the rules about the deep water.

Also, what I do know is that this group was not the only group to be asked not to come back. Another group was also asked not to come back that had (if I remember correctly) 75% white, and 25% other races. It was deemed that this group was also not a good match for the pool. However, this group saw that the manager was only looking out for the children's safety.

zalinda

[JTFrog]

115. If you don't know, then you obviously didn't read the article. It's right there.

But you sure keep apologizing like you've actually read or know something about this case. So 80 kids can be in a pool with no problem at all as long as they are white (which makes them good swimmers) and one of them is the owner's son. Go back and read the shit that you wrote. Seriously.

Twelve days before the Creative Steps campers were shown the door, Wright said The Valley Club hosted four sixth-grade classes from Rydal East Elementary School in Abington. Only two of the nearly 80 kids were minorities. One of them was Wright's 11-year-old son, Marcus.

[RamboLiberal]

88. Looking at that pool on google - including shallow section

That pool is as big or bigger than many public pools I've known. Many of which have shallow sections no bigger than that one and easily accomodate that number of kids safely in the shallower water.

The municipal pool I went to during the summer(60's) nearly every day had tons of kids, many without parents since in those days the parents would buy you a summer pool pass and let you walk to the pool with friends. In the shallow end there would be 2 or 3 teen lifeguards. When we got too boisterous or did something wrong we got the whistle. There had to be a couple of hundred kids at our city pool every summer day.

No one drowned. It was loud. There was a lot of shouting and squealing. And it was mixed races since this was a Pittsburgh area mill town.

Getting back to Valley Swim - wonder if they ever held big birthday parties? Or teen nights? Movie night at the pool? Most of these pools do and I bet they had decent size crowds? How many do they have on weekends? They had what, nearly 300+ maybe near 400 members.

[wisteria]

101. That was a one day well supervised visit. They had not contracted with the club for regular visits.

[Number23]

114. Congratulations! You win today's

Thank you for that impeccable link. Game over, folks!

[maxsolomon]

55. did the MEMBERS of the swim club have any say prior to the renting out?

at my former swim club in Seattle, which has a long waiting list to join, despite the high initial expense & yearly dues, if they wanted to rent it out to non-members without consulting the members, there would be hell to pay. and it wouldn't matter if the non-members were as white as Michael Jackson's kids.

a private pool is a private pool.

[RamboLiberal]

94. I'm sure they have rules and the board knows how to follow the rules

Any club I ever belonged to had tons of rules. As a member meetings bored me crazy over the endless discussions(arguments) over the silliest damn things.

I bet they had rules in place for rentals. And I bet they've rented the pool before.

[kath]

59. See bbernardini's post above:

"Twelve days before the Creative Steps campers were shown the door, Wright said The Valley Club hosted four sixth-grade classes from Rydal East Elementary School in Abington. Only two of the nearly 80 kids were minorities. One of them was Wright's 11-year-old son, Marcus.

A wonderful time was had by all." http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/news_details/article/28/2009/july/10/a-slap-in-the-face-over-color-of-kids-in-pool.html


That was a large group of nearly 80 kids, but they were nearly all white. Hmmmmmm......

[Tangerine LaBamba]

61. Were they properly supervised?

Accompanied by an adequate number of adults?

That's not included in the article, and the word "alllegedly" in the statement about the complaint is very well-advised.

So, how many adults accompanied the Creative Steps campers, and how many accompanied the Rydal East kids?

Can you say "Duke lacrosse team"?

[FiveGoodMen]

63. What makes you so sure?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

67. I'm not at all sure -

that's the difference between me and you. I have lots of questions about what really happened, and you seem to know what happened.

Clearly, you misread what I wrote, and that makes it all the more tragic..................

[bbernardini]

70. 8 adults were supervising the Creative Steps campers.

It's in the article.

[kwassa]

91. This account says that they were supervised and well-behaved.

as you build your house of cards, you might consider the following.

(and invoking the Duke lacrosse case is wildly irrelevant, it is no support for pure speculation on your part)

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/parenting/2009/07/black_children_kicked_out_of_p.html?hpid=news-col-blog

Valley Swim Club member and eyewitness Jan told talk radio host Michael Smerconish that the campers were behaving nicely and were well supervised:.

"We came in as the campers were there. I joined campers with my grandson . The children were playing. It was very crowded. ... It was important for me to watch him because there were so many children there. It was crowded, but there were at least two adult counselors. The pool had 2 lifeguards on either side of this area of the pool, which is only 3 feet deep. And there was also a supervisor who called these children out when it was time to leave. It was a very orderly dispensement. She called first for the female campers and then the male campers. It was so orderly and so well regulated both by the part of the staff of the camp and the pool, I knew of no problems.

The children were speaking so nicely with one another. They were conversing back and forth in such a nice manner. ... I don't think it would be a big problem that there were a lot of people there."

[JTFrog]

110. Out of context, out of order, out of space.....

The apologists are running out of excuses in this thread.

[nc4bo]

86. The club members felt all warm and cozy in their private club cocoon. nt

[wisteria]

64. I have been unreccomended. It is a shame when people who disagree with some truth, can do this.

But, that is ok. I didn't post to be reccomended anyway, so those of you who have chosen to unreccomend have done nothing more than feed the anti-decent monster. There are some real thin skins here at DU, who don't really want to hear both sides of an issue.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Awwww

:nopity:

[wisteria]

104. Unlike a lot of people here, I have a thick skin and when armed with truth,

no ones ignorant or misinformed comments bother me.

[Enthusiast]

80. Tell ya what,

the 'complexion' of the DU is changing to decidedly more red, as in neck.

[wisteria]

105. Now that is a prejudical comment. Why do you think that comment would not offend someone.

Honestly, think about what you just posted.

[Occulus]

111. Well, now, wait a second.

I just noticed something, and then remembered something else. None of the people who so vociferously defended the club that threw these kids out are currently participating in this thread, even to say that they're glad the kids found another place to go. Think about the rationalizations we've heard (and that's all these Concerned Duer's have- rationalizations). We've been told by these- get this- these longtime DUers that:

+ The pool was too small for 65 kids and the club was concerned for their safety (you really ought to click that link if you think that's a valid excuse)

+ the private club has the right to refuse anyone, even if they apparently advertised for the public to rent the pool outside "normal" membership rules, terms, and conditions (giving the money back makes them "even", I guess)

+ We shouldn't throw a fit and sue and protest and get all nimbly-bimbly when our kids are exposed to racism because it's part of the real world (I would dearly love to post that user's name for all to see, but DU rules prohibit call-outs, even though this poster richly deserves it- mods please note, I paraphrased their opinion here so people can't do a search for the actual phrases used and expose the user that way)

+ The kids were being noisy and rowdy and that's why they were thrown out (kids in a pool, being noisy and rowdy? ZOMGWUT!!1)

+ There was no racism component to the event in question (outright denial, that)

The thing is, I've found that there's one very easy way to identify the racists around us in society. When there's a story like this one, involving multiple people with multiple incriminating events or action on the part of the racist business/group/school/etc., even the closet racist will himself almost always immediately try to rationalize said actions (the Rodney King beating, the BART officer, and other examples coast to coast). The less obvious and more intelligent racist will cloak his racism inside a legal protection, often under the First Amendment (regardless of the obvious racism involved in the aforementioned action).

Your profile says that you joined in 2005, so you weren't a member here when several other longtime DUers were served pizza after revealing that they were closet freepers. I've maintained for a very long time now that there are posters here, whom I cannot mention by name, who are and have always been trolls. It's even happened here before.

Now that they have a 'nigger' President, they just can't help themselves.

(Sorry for that last bit, but it's Pavlovian for them at this point.)

[JTFrog]

116. +1 n/t

[nc4bo]

85. To the insecure there is a huge difference between 12 and 65 total.

Nothing like the sight of that many brownskins that make the palefaces fear their territory is being invaded.

[wisteria]

106. You are making assumptions that can not be proven as fact. And, just because

you think this way does not mean others do.

[Skip Intro]

89. You make good points. And wow, the replies to this thread. All but attacking you because you voice a

differing opinion. Especially when the facts are, at best, partially known.

Yes, there are two sides to each story. And yes, the facts of the investigation are not in. And yes, it is reasonable and responsible to withhold judgment until all the facts are known. Of course, this is simple stuff.

But damn, the heat you can take here for not joining the knee-jerk reaction party.

Thanks for having the courage to say, wait, let's know the facts before we render a verdict...

[Tangerine LaBamba]

93. Trippy, ain't it?

So much for "tolerance" and the notion that others might have opinions that don't match yours. I'm always shocked, and a bit saddened, when I watch a frenzy like this OP inspired among people who are, I am sure, very good folks who just don't seem to understand that there are more ways than one of telling a story. They would be, I am sure, in high dudgeon if their actions were so quickly judged and found wanting in any given situation that could have been perceived in a variety of ways.

The Duke lacrosse team debacle, which had folks here in High Rabid Mode, didn't seem to have been the teachable moment it truly was.

In the meantime, yes, it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.........................

[wisteria]

95. Thank you!

We need to have an open and honest dialog in this country about racism, but many who posted here are not mature enough to allow that to happen, so we take one step forward and two steps back.

[Starry Messenger]

117. Or, some people are really quite racist.

Why is it that people object more to being called "racist" than to actual racism?