In Memory of the Moon

[omega minimo]

Wisdom begins in wonder. - Socrates

Never does nature say one thing and wisdom another. - Juvenal

If a child is to keep alive his inborn sense of wonder, he needs the companionship of at least one adult who can share it, rediscovering with him the joy, excitement and mystery of the world we live in. - Rachel Carson

All this worldly wisdom was once the unamiable heresy of some wise human. - Henry David Thoreau

Dreams pass into the reality of action. From the actions stems the dream again; and this interdependence produces the highest form of living. - Anais Nin


If facts are the seeds that later produce knowledge and wisdom, then the emotions and the impressions of the senses are the fertile soil in which the seeds must grow. - Rachel Carson

By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest. - Confucius


The human race is challenged more than ever before to demonstrate our mastery - not over nature but of ourselves - Rachel Carson

We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. - Anais Nin


One way to open your eyes is to ask yourself, 'What if I had never seen this before? What if I knew I would never see it again? - Rachel Carson



He dares to be a fool, and that is the first step in the direction of wisdom. - James Huneker

Wisdom is a sacred communion. - Victor Hugo

Common sense in an uncommon degree is what the world calls wisdom. - Samuel Taylor Coleridge

The doors of wisdom are never shut. - Benjamin Franklin


In seeking wisdom thou art wise; in imagining that thou hast attained it - thou art a fool. - Lord Chesterfield

Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers. - Alfred Lord Tennyson


It is a wholesome and necessary thing for us to turn again to the earth and in the contemplation of her beauties to know of wonder and humility. - Rachel Carson

The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing. - Socrates
   
We are made wise not by the recollection of our past, but by the responsibility for our future. - George Bernard Shaw


"For just as we write in good faith what happens in our own time, and so to speak paint the state of our affairs, so that we put it on view to those who come after, and their successors, they also have done the same thing who were before us, from which it comes about by the common association of men that by combined endeavors our life becomes as it were more prolonged, and fuller, and we are able to pronounce on the state of things as if we had been present at them all."

Niccolo Cabeo, Italian Astronomer (1586-1650)


Memory is the mother of all wisdom. - Aeschylus

[Electric Monk]

1. Rumors of its death have been greatly exaggerated

R U Silly or Serious?

[Thickasabrick]

152. Is the moon really going away? nt

[renate]

2. what you wrote is beautiful

I assume from the title of this thread (forgive me if I've completely got hold of the wrong end of the stick) that you are mourning what is going to happen in a few hours--that the moon had until now been impregnable and pure. And I see what you mean, I do.

But to be completely logical and scientificy about it, the moon has been hit by innumerable objects over the eons--and all those impacts are part of what has made it so beautiful, by forming all those craters. This is merely the first time (with the exception of the relatively gentle moon landings) that it's going to be hit hard, deliberately, by something from us. It's a change, for sure, but it's in the name of science, which to me is beautiful too.

I do love all the quotes and pictures you've assembled. You did a poetic and thought-provoking job.

[omega minimo]

4. The wisdom of the ages.

Not quite the motivation you suppose. This is intended as a reflection of the moon in our culture, our collective memory of the moon, our science and traditions, architecture and language... It's hard to understand the sneering about "superstition" and such as we've seen here on the topic. I hoped to show some other perspectives. Thanks for your comments. :toast:

[Scout]

46. don't worry about the sneerers....

they are sad, sorry little people with no heart or soul. they get off on making fun of other people.

[omega minimo]

48. well there's that

all that lack is enabled by lack of education... how can people not know their own history? (rhetorical question)

[Zix]

81. ?

Okay. Perhaps you can help me.

Are you suggesting that is going to be affected by the experiment that has been under discussion? Is your post actually about the experiment or are you expressing your respect for the influence of the Moon on myth structure, culture and the subconscious for the sake of doing so? (Please don't misunderstand me. I think that would be a very good thing to do.)

[omega minimo]

87. I'll borrow again.... from #85 just posted

This OP is for those of you who are open enough to our shared history and culture -- knowledge which seems lacking in the sort of vociferous badgering (that poster) want to dust up here -- without pressure. If you see something you like or learn from or sparks your curiosity or sense of wonder or speaks to from ages past (including the astronomer the target crater was named for) that's just fine.

[Zix]

120. Right you are.

(bows low) my apologies for earlier posts on this thread assuming you intended this as a reference to the experiment.

I think this thread is a very unusual subject for somewhere like DU and applaud you for posting it.

:thumbsup:

[omega minimo]

137. ok

Thanks for your support. And it is a reference to the experiment, in terms of broadening the scope of information people bring to discussions, from some familiarity with our common heritage, which is, in fact ancient.

When I read some of the more blunt, rigid comments about "superstition" and such, I wonder where people draw the line, the moment they apparently think humans went instantly from cavemen to non-idiotic.

I have a bit more respect for people of the past and the fact that their legacy to us is inevitably the foundation of what we think we know.

That's why the quote from the very astronomer the target crater was named for, is so interesting. He's talking about this very connection.

[anonymous171]

3. OMG A 13 ft CRATER! GOODBYE MOON! nt

[omega minimo]

5. Good Night, Moon.

We'll see you rise another day.......... :hi:

[Kalyke]

9. In the great green room

there was a telephone

And a red balloon

And a picture of--the cow jumping over the moon. And there were three little bears, sitting on chairs and two little kittens and a pair of mittens and a little toy house and a young mouse and a comb and a brush and bowl full of mush and a quiet old lady who was whispering "hush."

Goodnight room, goodnight moon, goodnight cow jumping over the moon.

Goodnight light and the red balloon.

Goodnight bears goodnight chairs, goodnight kittens goodnight mittens,
goodnight clocks and goodnight socks, goodnight little house and goodnight mouse.

Goodnight comb and goodnight brush, goodnight nobody goodnight mush
and goodnight to the old lady whispering "hush."

Goodnight stars, goodnight air, goodnight noises everywhere.

[JonLP24]

14. Is that a well known poem someone wrote?

It's very similar to a scene in a TV show once. The words are different but the idea is the same.

TV scene:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMrnbLRkQ-g

[EOTE]

23. It's a popular children's bed-time book "Goodnight Moon".

I read it to my daughter a good 3 times a week or more, she loves it. Great for getting the little ones ready for bed.

[Kalyke]

47. I have a toddler.

I read it weekly, too - and also read to my now 10-year-old son when he was a toddler.

[EOTE]

50. My 3 year old daughter loves it.

She's just getting into rhyming now, so I'll read a line then read half of the next line and let her finish it. We've been reading it to her pretty much since she was born and by a year or so, she was able to point out the mice and the cow and the little old lady and such. I think it's a classic for good reason, it seems to do a very good job with helping children develop their recognition and verbal skills. It's also Stewie's (from Family Guy) favorite book as well :)

[d_b]

6. so when are we blowing up the moon?

I ain't got all night.

[EOTE]

26. It's already done been blowed up.

You can still see it in the sky though because you're seeing the moon as it existed several hours ago. At around noon EST, you're gonna see a blinding flash in the sky and the moon blowing into several pieces. You can get a good idea of what it will be like by watching this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csj7vMKy4EI

[kenny blankenship]

124. They replaced it with a clever fake!

[omega minimo]

7. Never does nature say one thing and wisdom another. - Juvenal

[JonLP24]

8. I recommended but now it's gone

:shrug:

Anyways it was a great post to read and I did recommend it and :kick:

[omega minimo]

12. Down the Memory Hole

:spray: Thanks for the thought, JonLP24.

[JHB]

10. "Bail out you fool!" -- Unnamed US astronaut...

...while watching films made from Ranger probe photos ... as they (intentionally) crashed into the Moon back in the 60's.


Yet somehow, ol'Luna is still up there. Dang tough rock, that Moon.

[Me.]

11. Why Do Americans Want To Shoot Everything?

People. animals...now the moon. How do they know this won't have solar repercussions?

[Bill McBlueState]

13. what do you mean by solar repercussions? n/t

[Me.]

16. How Do We Know

That down the road we will discover we did damage, or threw something within the solar system out, that we wish we hadn't?

[Javaman]

28. ...

:banghead:

[JHB]

31. 1) The moon takes hits like that every day from "natural" sources...

...so this is actually nothin unusual for it, and

2) This won't throw anything out of the solar system. There simply isn't enough energy to do that. The only things we've ever "thrown" out of the solar system can be counted on one hand: Pioneer 10, Pioneer 11, Voyager 1, and Voyager 2. All of which were done deliberately.

[Me.]

35. But Aren't Those Hits Delivered To The Surface

And not a rocket full of dynamite delivered within?

[SidDithers]

39. Really?...nt

:banghead:

Sid

[JHB]

51. Do you actually not understand what is being done to such a great degree?

Do you understand that the question you asked is the equivalent of holding up a "get a brains, moran" sign? Something that shows that's supposed to be a counter-argument but instead shows off a breathtaking ignorance of the elementary facts of the matter?

(And people wonder why some of the commentors on this sound so "superior"?)


Why don't you tell us what you think NASA is doing?

[omega minimo]

58. On this topic, so many are more interested in personal attacks that providing actual information

Percentage of posters explaining rather than badgering: .0001

Here's some resources.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6724444&mesg_id=6724444

[Me.]

76. Nonsense

[NeedleCast]

53. Why be willfully ignorant?

We dropped a metal cannister on the moon. There were no exposive in it. It was the spent booster stage of a rocket. Do you understand what a kinetic impact is?

The moon is impacted by much more massive objects on a regular basis. This was less than a gnat hitting a car windshield, by a lot. Your hysteria is no different than the fear that dropping a pebble into the pacific ocean would cause massive flooding in San Diego.

[Me.]

75. You're Right, I Misspoke

The crash was the equivalent to the ship being filled with TNT. As to being willfully ignorant, as you put it, nothing exists in a vacuum and to every action there is a reaction. My point has been how do they know exactly, that they aren't doing more harm than good. Sorry if questions offend your sensibilities and the use of words like hysteria is just so much hyperbole.

[omega minimo]

77. They don't know. It's an experiment.

There are known knowns and there are known unknowns and there are unknown unknowns and no one knows "that they aren't doing more harm than good."

So they have to insist that they know.

And if they do do more harm than good, who's to know? :shrug:

[Critters2]

142. :facepalm: All that bs and a quote from Rumsfeld, too! nt

[omega minimo]

144. "They don't know. It's an experiment." If you call that "all that bs" ymight need stop smacking

yourself in the head. :crazy: And don't pretend the Rummy quote is supposed to be LESS than ironic.

[Critters2]

146. What harm do you think they may have done?

This isn't the first big projectile to hit the moon, ya know. Or maybe you didn't know.

[omega minimo]

148. If you want to address what I've said and not lump me into your generic target practice

that would be something :hi:

[Critters2]

150. That's what I get for asking a logical question.

You'd think I'd know better by now.

[omega minimo]

151. Here, I'll help you sort it out:

"Me." said in post #75
"My point has been how do they know exactly, that they aren't doing more harm than good."


I replied: "They don't know. It's an experiment.
"So they have to insist that they know. And if they do do more harm than good, who's to know?"

That's true, isn't it? The Rummy quote/joke left out, but they don't know with verifiable certainty "that they aren't doing more harm than good."

And if they did happen to do more harm, destroy something or alter something related to that location and/or the potential presence of ice/water, after the fact, how would anyone confirm that -- especially if it's never considered?


And this will help answer your direct question... the poster did not reply. Can you answer? That would be an interesting direction to continue and one not seen AFAIK elsewhere.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6732845&mesg_id=6737932

[Critters2]

156. "Especially if it's never considered?"

Why on God's green earth would you think the possible effects weren't considered? What kind of idiots do you think are running NASA?

[omega minimo]

157. Do you know if it was considered? It wasn't brought up here. Just "it's dead, a rock"

Certainly NASA would include some consideration of those "unknown unknowns," right? Do you know anything about that?


"And if they did happen to do more harm, destroy something or alter something related to that location and/or the potential presence of ice/water, after the fact, how would anyone confirm that -- especially if it's never considered?"

If something is destroyed or altered, how would anyone know after the fact, that they'd destroyed something they didn't know (had been) present?

[Critters2]

158. Yeah. You're the only one who thought to wonder if it might do any harm.

Be sure to send your resume' to NASA. I'm sure they'll be interested.

[omega minimo]

159. So you have no actual answer or information or interest in discussion,

hiding behind nastiness, typical of most of the hateful BS the DU "science" geniuses have been presenting instead of facts.

That's why I said, ""They don't know. It's an experiment. So they have to insist that they know."

That's what you're doing.

Except you haven't said anything substantive.

[Critters2]

160. I have an anwer: Of course they considered the possibiliies of any harm,

and ruled them out before doing this. When person answers a question (a silly question to being with) three times, and you STILL don't get it, yeah, one moves toward nastiness.

Look, just go pray to the moon, and stop bothering us "'science' geniuses". :eyes:

[omega minimo]

164. "Ruled them out"?

The answer is still, "They don't know" and you don't know either. You are making claims of fact based on assumptions and no evidence and apparently have not thought about it or found actual information, at all.

When a person resorts to nastiness from the start and still doesn't present anything substantive three times, it further proves that most people who hijack these threads are all bluster, no data.

[Critters2]

167. You wouldn't know a substantive answer if it bit you in the ass.

And someone who romanticizes a big rock the way you do, really isn't in a position to criticize anyone else regarding substantive thought.

[omega minimo]

169. All you've got is personal attacks

continuing to prove the point. All bluster, no data. FAIL.

[Critters2]

170. Data don't matter to you.

People have provided all the relevant data, and you ignore them.

[omega minimo]

171. That's not true and it's certainly not true

in this thread -- so you can make any bogus claim you like about whatever you're pretending to reference as if it's true................

Go back up and see if you can apply yourself to this subthread, the comments and specific questions, which another "SciGuy" started. dipped his toe in the Moonwater and never came back with anything substantive, just like you.

At least that one didn't continue flaming and pretending that was valid.

[Critters2]

172. Whatever. Go back to worshiping the big rock. nt

[omega minimo]

174. You and your chauvinistic (i.e. you think you know....

:wtf: you're talking about, even though you don't have anything to base it on and call yourself "scientific") authoritarian mob mentality -- and the mob members -- have been hoist on your own fragile, needy, paranoid petard.


You are in a thread offering some perspectives other than the one that has you trapped and hostile.

:hi:

[Critters2]

175. ...

:rofl:

[NeedleCast]

93. Your questions are silly, and you seem to not understand why

I'm sorry, but the questions you pose are silly. The crash was nothing like an object being filled with TNT. Nothing. It was kinetic impact only.

We understand perfectly what the reaction to the impact of a 4,000 pound metal cannister will be. We got exactly that reaction (a small hole with a small amount of dust kicked up, which is exactly what we expected). Your questions don't offend my sensibilites, they offend my intelligence.

If we listened to folks like you, we'd still be rubbing sticks together to produce fire.

Actually, you'd probably be on the anti-fire committee.

[omega minimo]

101. You've made your point, thank you

for attempting to be civil about it.

[sl8]

112. It's similar to a TNT filled object in some ways.

NASA claims that the Centaur will impact with 10 billion joules kinetic energy. TNT equivalent is about 4 billion joules per ton.

You don't need to use chemical explosives when you've got that much kinetic energy available.

[Critters2]

The action was sending the ship into the moon. The reaction was the

cloud of debris that was forced out of the hole where the ship went. You see, science is remarkably logical.

[EOTE]

63. The Mooninites thank you for your concern.

My God is an Indian who turns into a wolf. He is the Wolfen. And he will come for you with his razor.

[omega minimo]

40. They are looking for water, which supports life,

while assuming that everything there is dead.

[Critters2]

140. Do you have any idea what a tiny speck in the solar system the Earth moon is?

No. Obviously, you don't.

Well, trust me. The solar system is just fine. Thanks for your concern.

[NeedleCast]

21. Physics

That's how we know.

[Me.]

36. To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction

[NeedleCast]

54. Correct!

If you actually understood what you just said, you'd understand why this isn't a big deal (except in terms of scientific research).

[Me.]

82. Funny

How it bothers you that someone is questioning this mission and yet all you can keep saying it's no big deal. It was a big enough deal for massive hype and millions of people getting up to watch. Furthermore, they say they're looking for signs of life which is a big deal. So what if there is life there, have we harmed it in any way with the explosion that didn't produce the immediate results that were predicted.

[NeedleCast]

95. Wrong Again

We were not searching for signs of life with this experiment, we were searching for the signs of water-ice frozen into the bottom of deep craters near the lunar poles. It had nothing to do with a search for life. It has everything to do with detecting water on the moon for future scientific and possibly colonization efforts because there are a lot of advantages to setting up science stations on the moon (most notably the near-total lack of atmosphere).

There is almost certainly no life on the moon as the moon has almost no atmosphere and is exposed to vacuum. If there is life (and that's a huge if) it's microbial.

Again, I am not bothered by your questions. I am bothered by the ignorance of your questions and the fact that you obviously haven't read a thing about this NASA mission or you'd know better.

[omega minimo]

104. "If there is life (and that's a huge if) it's microbial."

"There is almost certainly no life on the moon as the moon has almost no atmosphere and is exposed to vacuum. If there is life (and that's a huge if) it's microbial."

How big an "IF" was that as a factor in the decision to use high impact as a method of detection?

IF something from elsewhere was delivered with the comet ice from a natural impact ... ?

[Me.]

105. Dear Oh Dear

You have gotten yourself into a dither today

[CreekDog]

92. I think blowing up the Desert Inn in Las Vegas was a more powerful action

than this.

[zonkers]

161. What? The Desert Inn? Blown up?!!!!!! When?!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. And Here I Thought The Whole 'Douchebag' Thing Would Forever Be Your Shining Moment.

But then... jeez... I still don't believe this is for real... boggles the mind, really...

Moon crying...

Oh... oh... my goodness... for real???

:wow:

[omega minimo]

18. And what will be yours?

The ability to look at this OP full of inspiration and only be able to drop turds in the punchbowl.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. OP Full Of Inspiration...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Desertrose]

60. Whats so funny....

....maybe you don't understand what "inspiration" is?

[subcomhd]

102. what, you're not inspired? The OP has inspired me

to win next year's NPP for saving the moon.

[SidDithers]

17. Gladly unrecc'd...nt

Sid

[Scout]

44. gladly rec'd n/t

[SidDithers]

45. Ain't democracy grand...nt

Sid

[H2O Man]

19. Recommended.

Thanks for this.

[omega minimo]

22. .

namaste

[NeedleCast]

20. You know it'll come back once night time arrives, right?

[GoneOffShore]

24. But it will have been . . . . . . violated.

Oh the moo-namity!

[omega minimo]

25. Speaking of short attention (memory) span

If any of that cultural history and embedded memory is of interest to you, please let us know.

[NeedleCast]

27. Tell you what

Post something original instead of taking a bunch of out of context quotes and slapping them as captions on picutres and I'll consider taking you seriously.

I know quoting scholars and philosophers is on page one of the woo-woo handbook, but most of us are on to that game.

[omega minimo]

29. That's remarkable

That level of venality has reached a new low.

[Zix]

65. [Actually, I've edited this cos its not quite what I think...]

The stuff you posted is lovely and thought-provoking but it doesn't have anything to do with the experiment, I am assuming that this post IS about the experiment? Am I wrong to make that assumption? Are we to take your OP at just at face value outwith the context of other posts you've made over the past 48 hours?

[omega minimo]

71. Allow me to refer you to a reply upthread that seems to convey the notion:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6732845&mesg_id=6732893

[Zix]

67. Your post is very beautiful. I like it very much.

But you haven't changed my mind about the experiment. I have no problem with it and I still can't really see why you do.

[omega minimo]

69. Thank you

You don't know what I think about the experiment.

You may think you do.

If you think about it, you realize that opinion is based on assumptions, not facts.

[fishwax]

30. what happened to the moon?

I'll miss that green-cheesy bundle of goodness.

[cali]

33. Rec

This is a beautiful post. Credit where credit is due.

[Javaman]

34. oh this thread has such potential. LOL nt

[tomm2thumbs]

37. touching

[slackmaster]

38. Nice collection of photos

K&U

:kick:

[sufrommich]

41. I'm pretty sure the moon can handle a new 13 ft. crater. nt

[omega minimo]

43. I'm pretty sure you didn't read the OP.

[AngryAmish]

42. This is fantastic

We are learning so much.

[Uncle Joe]

49. Those are some beautiful photos, omega and a nice dedication.

thanks for the thread.:hi:

Kicked and recommended.

[omega minimo]

55. "With our backs turned to the place in nature from which we came, we sense an unfamiliar tide rising

"With our backs turned to the place in nature from which we came, we sense an unfamiliar tide rising and swirling around our ankles, pulling at the sand beneath our feet." From Al Gore's Earth In The Balance

Thanks, Uncle Joe, as ever :yourock:

[hiphopnation]

52. I have it on good information that the moon...

did not rape and murder a young girl in 1990.

this one, however...well, see for yourself.

http://glennbeckrapedandmurderedayounggirlin1990.com/

[omega minimo]

56. Please do not crater this thread with your toxic probes.

[BeHereNow]

59. Amazing isn't it? The number of trolls on DU these days?

Hope the pizza is in the oven.
I'm really growing tired of assholes which seem to be out in force these days.
Thanks for the beautiful post.

BHN

[omega minimo]

66. oh, thank you for your interest

in the good stuff :hi: and for Being Here Now

[Desertrose]

57. This is lovely Omega. Thank you.

Some great quotes.....perhaps those who are so sure their way of thinking has all the answers,should ponder the possibilities that maybe that is not so.....


"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." - Socrates

[omega minimo]

61. Just for you, Desertrose

and others who appreciate our common knowledge. :toast:

[Desertrose]

64. I'll drink to that!!

:toast::toast:

:grouphug:

[Silent3]

74. There's a big difference between thinking you know everything...

...and being so wildly "open" to so many ideas that you have no bullshit filter left.

If someone expects me to be "open" to the idea that this probe might have cracked the moon in two, destroyed the entire system of tidal effects, and lead to the oceans being frozen over, that person had better be "open" to hearing me say "bullshit" and then "open" to defending this idea with more than just whining about my supposed bad attitude and closed-mindedness.

Even though nothing catastrophic has happened (yet! bwahaha!) I'm sure there are still a few people consoling themselves that they had a "valid" concerns, and that we were just "lucky" the probe didn't hit the "wrong way", or that all of the "light workers" in the world beaming out "positive vibrations" at the moon saved all of humanity from the arrogant folly of those terrible scientists who think they know everything.

That there might be value in putting people's ideas through a crucible of tough questioning and even scorn, is also an "idea". How open are you to that idea? Or is your openness limited only to supposedly "spiritual" and "enlightened" meanderings, the kind of stuff I'd call "woo"?

[omega minimo]

85. You're in the wrong thread

This OP is for those of you who are open enough to our shared history and culture -- knowledge which seems lacking in the sort of vociferous badgering you want to dust up here -- without pressure. If you see something you like or learn from or sparks your curiosity or sense of wonder or speaks to from ages past (including the astronomer the target crater was named for) that's just fine.

:thumbsup:

As for taking on your challenge, maybe another time. It's just that you are wrapping all your assumptions up in a ball and hurling them at all those you lump together, with no concept of nuance, of actual "scientfic" observation of a range of opinion and experiences. OTOH the one note, brutal attitudes of those who seem to have no knowledge of anything outside their educational box, might be interested in a taste of "liberal arts."

"That there might be value in putting people's ideas through a crucible of tough questioning and even scorn, is also an "idea". How open are you to that idea?"

I think that if all parties have enough confidence and consideration, the "crucible of tough questioning" is possible on DU without the scorn. I "believe" that, even without any factual evidence or proof that it is possible. How "woo" is that.

[Silent3]

107. There is such a thing as a really bad or stupid idea

If scorn is off the table, bad ideas get elevated to a position in the marketplace of ideas where they're treated as equal to ideas that at least have much more possibility of real merit.

Here's a dumb idea off the top of my head (and just because I'm making it up to be deliberately dumb doesn't automatically make it worse than the crap generated by some people's vaunted "intuition"): If certain combinations of human beings meet and touch each other there will be an enormous explosion like an atomic bomb going off.

By the new-agey woo woo credo of being "open minded", there's no reason to rule this out. This idea should be treated with respect because:

We don't know "everything" about people.
We don't know "everything" about how explosions can happen.
We haven't tried making every person meet every other person, so until every possible combination has been exhausted, the idea of this potential massive explosion must be treated respectfully as still being plausible.

Are you really going lose sleep, however, worrying about what will happen the next time you shake hands with a new acquaintance?

Are people who pay such a concern no heed trapped inside an "educational box", filled with arrogance that their knowledge is enough to dismiss this concern?

Would you want to attribute me with great spiritual insight if two people meet and form a plan to see off a powerful bomb, or happen to meet while coincidentally each carry half or more of a critical radioactive mass?

[omega minimo]

110. Please

let me respond to the first comment. (You're right, you've made the rest intentionally absurd and also seem to want to challenge something that isn't at all presented in this thread, so maybe later.......)

"If scorn is off the table, bad ideas get elevated to a position in the marketplace of ideas where they're treated as equal to ideas that at least have much more possibility of real merit."

IMHO, that's what DU Rules "based on respect" are for. If this is a "marketplace of ideas" and if the aforementioned confidence exists, it might just be possible to see what people have to say -- at least a couple of replies worth -- rather than immediate dismissal and disregard.

However, we've now seen it clearly stated that some people find the disruption "entertaining" -- they didn't go to market for ideas, they went to mug people.

Also, some folks come all wound up with their preconceptions about ideas having "position" "merit" and don't listen to what's being said, but just pile on with preconceived notions.

I know, duh :eyes: it's the Internet. So why do we have rules "based on respect" at all? So the people who all agree can "scorn" those ideas they are afraid might be "elevated to a position in the marketplace of ideas where they're treated as equal"? :scared:

Here's a scary thought: WHAT IF THEY ARE EQUAL or at least deserving of an airing, a DUer deserving of the basic respect of having a voice, a contribution.

[Silent3]

118. If they are equal, they'll come out of a fight stronger.

It's also a self-reinforcing, self-insulating defensive tactic to presume that people only attack an idea because they are "afraid" of that idea.

You probably won't believe me, even if you give me the benefit of the doubt that I'm not "consciously aware" of the fear you're almost certain to presume is there, but I don't have the least bit of fear that someone is going to be right about the moon cracking apart, that another person is in psychic contact with a league of spiritually-advanced aliens, I don't fear the healing power of crystals, I don't feel threatened by the alignment of chakras (or whatever that would mean to my whole world view if there really were chakras that could be aligned)-- I genuinely feel a mixture of amusement at these ideas, and sadness that people fall for such crap.

I think one of the reasons we live in a society with such terrible scientific ignorance and such a lack of respect for education is that those whose education extends beyond occasionally useful (but not all powerful, not always applicable) aphorisms, like those in your OP, have for too long been way too polite and diplomatically understated.

[omega minimo]

134. Who decided it has to be a fight?

It doesn't. Although you answered that question with your final comment, that "those whose education extends beyond occasionally useful (but not all powerful, not always applicable) aphorisms, like those in your OP, have for too long been way too polite and diplomatically understated."

It's ironic that you would try to do a reversal on those varied "aphorisms" of the past and demean -- just about everything in one fell swoop: the historic figures of all disciplines who uttered the "occasionally useful aphorisms" and their great written works, the artwork and architecture, AND "those who education extends beyond" very isolated and specialized knowledge sets.

That was the whole point of the OP -- to offer a sample tasting for those unfamiliar with what used to be the "liberal arts" or "well rounded" education. Unless I misunderstand you, your dismissive response proves the suspicion that MORE of this type of education is drastically needed.




"It's also a self-reinforcing, self-insulating defensive tactic to presume that people only attack an idea because they are "afraid" of that idea."

Please note that I did not "presume" and did not say "only" and don't claim to know all the twisted reasons people "attack."

I also did not say "they are afraid of that idea."

There is a difference -- maybe too subtle -- with what I said:

"So why do we have rules "based on respect" at all? So the people who all agree can "scorn" those ideas they are afraid might be "elevated to a position in the marketplace of ideas where they're treated as equal"? "

I didn't say they fear the idea (necessarily). I asked if "they are afraid (the idea) might be "elevated to a position in the marketplace of ideas where they're treated as equal."

Those were your words. That was the question. Is that the fear, that the idea may be "elevated" and then -- so what?

That goes back to the confidence I mentioned. In a marketplace of ideas, one doesn't have to fear the other will be "elevated" unfairly, as if doesn't deserve to be "treated as equal."

Unless someone assumes they know which ideas are "worthy" or not.

Why is it -- on here at least -- that those who presume to know which ideas are "worthy" of being "treated as equal" are also the ones looking to "attack" and "fight"?

:think:

[Silent3]

176. Some people will take practically any voiced disagreement...

...or tough questions as a "fight", and that's all I meant by it.

It's ironic that you would try to do a reversal on those varied "aphorisms" of the past and demean -- just about everything in one fell swoop

What I'm showing disdain for is something like this: People quoting Einstein saying "Imagination is more important than knowledge" who don't even have a smidgen of the type of knowledge Einstein had and valued, who fancy that quotes like this justify valuing their own uneducated ramblings over opinions from those who are not viewed as knowing more, but merely as being stuck in a sad little box of their narrow educated understanding. They tell themselves that because they believe they're in psychic contact with moon-visiting aliens, freed by their "imaginations" to soar to these dizzying intellectual heights, they're really smarter (and Einstein said so!) that any stodgy person who "thinks they know everything" and doubts such things.

Please note that I did not "presume" and did not say "only" and don't claim to know all the twisted reasons people "attack."

Ah, so it's not always fear. It could be other "twisted reasons" that someone thinks that worrying about the moon splitting in two is silly, and isn't afraid to say so. How generous of you.

That goes back to the confidence I mentioned. In a marketplace of ideas, one doesn't have to fear the other will be "elevated" unfairly, as if doesn't deserve to be "treated as equal."

I was very confident of my opinion that either Gore or Kerry would have made far better Presidents than Bush. I feared, and rightly so, that the opinion Bush would be a good President would be elevated to a position higher than it deserved. That fear was very well founded, and hadn't the slightest thing to do with any lack of confidence in my own opinion.

[PeaceNikki]

62. We kilt it?

See you in hell, moon!!!!1

USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!1

[omega minimo]

68. How can something "dead" die?

[Swamp Rat]

70. Great photos!

I love the first one! :loveya: :hi:

[omega minimo]

72. Yeah, even your artistry can't top that!

Hey, how bout you share with the thread one of your beautiful peace signs? :pals:

[Swamp Rat]

73. Here's one that includes my prediction, which came true today:

;)

[omega minimo]

79. Effin Awesome YOU!!!

:woohoo:

[omega minimo]

80. Effin Awesome YOU!!!

:woohoo:

[bdamomma]

123. very nice swampy!!

:hi:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

78. But They're Not Annoyingly Green!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[MilesColtrane]

83. Quotes are fun

“I don't know if there are men on the moon, but if there are they must be using the earth as their lunatic asylum” - George Bernard Shaw


“I like to think that the moon is there even if I am not looking at it” - Albert Einstein


“Every one is a moon, and has a dark side which he never shows to anybody” - Mark Twain


“Most people are unable to write because they are unable to think, and they are unable to think because they congenitally lack the equipment to do so, just as they congenitally lack the equipment to fly over the moon.” - Henry Louis Mencken


“Fear can sometimes be a useful emotion. For instance, let's say you're an astronaut on the moon and you fear that your partner has been turned into Dracula. The next time he goes out for the moon pieces, wham!, you just slam the door behind him and blast off. He might call you on the radio and say he's not Dracula, but you just say, "Think again, bat man."” - Jack Handy


"Gag me with a spoon!" - Moon Unit Zappa

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BeHereNow]

86. Your post is VILE.

I can not believe you wrote something so foul
such a beautiful thread.
What in the hell is wrong with you?
BHN

[EOTE]

89. The words are not mine, but of the great bard Juvenile.

And I thought they were fairly appropriate.

[BeHereNow]

90. Appropriate in what way exactly?

I find them disgusting and sexist.
BHN

[EOTE]

94. I found it a good companion quote to that of Juvenal's.

And it's not disgusting and sexist at all. I know urban lingo can be difficult to decipher at times, but I assure you that Juvenile was in fact fond of said ass and has nothing disparaging to say about it.

[BeHereNow]

98. All praise to the mods on this one...

THANK YOU,
BHN

[omega minimo]

100. consider the source

"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are. - Anais Nin"

And the same person "reads Goodnight Moon to my three year old..............." :crazy:

[Name removed]

103. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CreekDog]

88. you forgot an image

[omega minimo]

91. .

[Libertas1776]

96. We will

never forget.
RIP Moon, beloved husband, father, and natural satellite (4,000,000,000 BCE - 2009 ACE)
:rofl:


Aw, just kidding, That's actually a really good OP you wrote there, and great pics :fistbump:

[omega minimo]

97. All right

:hi:

[shadowknows69]

99. And we had to go and bomb it. DAMN YOUSE! DAMN YOUSE ALL TO HELL!

[Critters2]

106. Damned scientists and their incessant need to know stuff! nt

[democrat2thecore]

113. delete - mistake -

[omega minimo]

114. Stephen Colbert, is that you?

:bounce:

[varelse]

108. Well hell

I recommended your post, and loved it - and I've got no problem with science, NASA, or the "bombing".

Jeez, what is it with some of you who showed up only to sneer - have you got some kind of glasses that make everything EITHER black OR white? Remove them occasionally please, and embrace the rainbow now and then. :D

[omega minimo]

117. and you've helped make the point

we're not all the same person, we don't all think alike, the "sneerers" base their attitudes on false assumptions and "degrade the discussion for everyone."

I'd love to know how many cross disciplinary lurkers DU has, too. :popcorn:

Actually the black and white thinking and real -- beyond resistance -- hostility to ideas, seems an indication of the way education has changed. Some people know what they know and don't care about what they don't. :shrug:

[CreekDog]

122. "In Memory of The Moon" is a topic title people are going to react to

why is that surprising?

[omega minimo]

125. "React" or knee jerk?

The OP clearly presents art and artifacts, a shared history of the moon, memory embedded in culture and language, beyond the black and white "it's dead" stuff heard lately.

It seemed some folks were unaware the moon is more than a big rock.

[CreekDog]

128. You put "In Memory Of The Moon" in the title, exactly what did you expect?

:eyes:

You could have said, "To Honor The Moon" or "I'm in awe of the moon" or "The history of the moon" or whatever.

But you said "In Memory of The Moon" the same day that thing was supposed to happen and people are going to make fun of you because the moon is not actually gone and will not be.

:banghead:

[omega minimo]

129. Why do you assume everyone thinks or reacts like you?

You can name YOUR OP whatever you want. Don't tell me what I should have done here. :evilfrown:

I even fucking EXPLAINED to you already why I titled it so. :wtf:

Maybe if you stop pounding your head on the wall, you could think a bit clearer. And realize other people are capable of thinking for themselves.

Some can even click on an OP and actually READ IT before REACTING.

:think:

[CreekDog]

133. Because I am very average

I have very average gut reactions.

I just have this sense for how things are going to play. I dunno why.

Besides, look at the reactions. Lots of people are reacting that way. :think:

[varelse]

145. Sadly it isn't

just kind of disappointing :(

[omega minimo]

155. Was anything in the OP of interest to you?

I might have called it The Memory In The Moon.

[MorningGlow]

131. +1 n/t

[sagetea]

109. Thank you

From one Human Being to another.These are beautiful!


ho
sage

[omega minimo]

119. You're welcome

A Real Human Being :bounce: :hi:

[LTR]

111. WOW! In that first pic, is that's all that's left of the moon?

And why does Chicken Of The Sea taste like tuna?

[democrat2thecore]

115. Think about this...

The moon mission is all for science and it has nothing to do with anything.
We do worse to Earth everyday at a big construction site.
A little perspective, please. Though, the quotes WERE very nice (pix too!).

[omega minimo]

126. "Though, the quotes WERE very nice (pix too!)."

They were to provide "a little perspective, please." :hi:

[CreekDog]

116. A great man commented on such a tragedy as this:

"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened " --Obi Wan Kenobi

[Hekate]

121. Thank you. That is really beautiful. You know that age cannot wither nor custom stale...

... the Moon in her infinite variety.

In the name of Hina, Cerridwen, Artemis, Selene, Bendis, Coyolxauhqui, Diana, Heng-O, Khonsu, Mawu, Men, Luna, Nanna, Soma, Tsuki-Yomi, Yarikh, Sina, Alignak, and Thoth...

The Moon will always shine in our night skies.

Hekate

[omega minimo]

127. Blessed Be, Hekate.

:grouphug:

[sagetea]

143. You are one of my favorites on here!

Ko'komíki'somma... moon
Si`ksi`ka Blackfoot... just one more for your collection!

ho
sage

[omega minimo]

147. Thank you sagetea! for the names. Is the second one the tribe name?

and I love sages. So do the hummingbirds I plant them for. :hi:

[Hekate]

153. Thank you for that...

:blush:

Hekate

[SpookyCat]

130. Can I give Mars some love?

Moon, science and woo issues notwithstanding, this is one of my favorite poems of all time.

**************************************

The Light of Stars

by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
(1807-1882)

THE NIGHT is come, but not too soon;
And sinking silently,
All silently, the little moon
Drops down behind the sky.

There is no light in earth or heaven
But the cold light of stars;
And the first watch of night is given
To the red planet Mars.

Is it the tender star of love?
The star of love and dreams?
Oh no! from that blue tent above
A hero’s armor gleams.

And earnest thoughts within me rise,
When I behold afar,
Suspended in the evening skies,
The shield of that red star.

O star of strength! I see thee stand
And smile upon my pain;
Thou beckonest with thy mailed hand,
And I am strong again.

Within my breast there is no light
But the cold light of stars;
I give the first watch of the night
To the red planet Mars.

The star of the unconquered will,
He rises in my breast,
Serene, and resolute, and still,
And calm, and self-possessed.

And thou, too, whosoe’er thou art,
That readest this brief psalm,
As one by one thy hopes depart,
Be resolute and calm.

Oh, fear not in a world like this,
And thou shalt know erelong,
Know how sublime a thing it is
To suffer and be strong.

[omega minimo]

154. Ironic

that "woos" ( ugly unwelcome term used by webdirected haters ) would be the first to get the concept.

[MorningGlow]

132. Lovely, OM!

:hi:

Thank you so much for this.

There is room for both science and wonder alike.

[omega minimo]

135. "Wisdom begins in wonder." - Socrates

Without wonder, no science.

:hug:

[rd_kent]

136. Uh, thats great, but the moon is still there and unchanged.

[omega minimo]

138. Uh, thats great, but the OP is still there if you wanna heh heh uh uh

read it.

[rd_kent]

139. Just asking why "in memory of" when its still right there, unchanged.

Same as it ever was.

[omega minimo]

141. I guess if you didn't read the OP you didn't read the thread either

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6732845&mesg_id=6739029

[cherokeeprogressive]

149. Why haven't you posted about Lunar Warming, or Lunar Climate Change?

After all, we sent spacecraft to the moon that used rocket motors to descend, and rocket motors to take off.

Why haven't you posted about this?

[Regret My New Name]

162. Cool pics and interesting post, but I still think you're weird.. :P

(weird in a good way, of course. That silly moon mission's threads would have been far less interesting of a read without you)

[omega minimo]

165. You might think

I'm weirder (or not) if I was allowed to say what I think, instead of the generic cliched bullshit heaped on me that kills discussion -- and then provides the toxic "entertainment" so dear to so many.....

IMHO there are probably a lot of interesting lurkers who have a lot to say on a lot of topics, including how they are interrelated, who don't like the fascist death grip of self appointed arbiters of "If you don't know more that me STFU and if you do know more than me STFU."

It's fucked up. :hi:

[retread]

163. Very well done. But you have your stalkers don't you?

[omega minimo]

166. They prefer to call it "questioning" and "discussing"

rather than stalking. :freak:

[SidDithers]

168. Do all those websites know you're stealing bandwidth...

by hotlinking those images?

hoax-slayer.com?
bible.ca?
ancestry.com
feministmarketplace.com?
giveyoujoy.net?
livius.org?
photogalaxy.com?
nationalgeographic.com?

Sid

[Critters2]

173. Uh oh! Someone forgot to use photobucket! nt