Young, nerdy-type men; where is their support?

[HEyHEY]

Now, this isn't designed to stir shit up. I'm asking a serious question. One of the things that pisses me off the most on DU is how people can post things that a directly offensive to me as a man, and when I say I'm offended I'm told i shouldn't be. Would you say that to a black person who was offended at a comic depicting black people to be criminals? It's a double standard that targets men more than anything and it gets my dander up every time. Okay, strayed off topic there.

So, here's a question does society realize, or even give a shit about the millions of young men in the west who are made to feel weak, nerdy, or unattractive by women? Does anyone care about their self-esteem? Does anyone care about their humiliation?

In my life I've seen the awkward, nerdy (and not in a cool way) looking guy get shit on by women at clubs or parties MANY a time. I remember once in college watching an attractive girl reach up into a pipe-cleaner of a guy's hair and drop some cigarette ashes on it as her friends laughed.

I've heard countless stories of such men being laughed at when asking out a girl, or just trying to say hello to one. This affects the emotions and success of such men in very sad ways. Living in China I see many of these kind of men who have come here. They are the butt of everyone's jokes, especially the Expat women who still look and talk about them like they are complete shit. I have heard western women say horrible things when they see some super-awkward guy with his Chinese girlfriend. So it's like, they would NEVER talk to such a "loser" back home and now that the guy finally had to leave the country to get a date, he's to be ridiculed for that too. I find it to be rather sick.


These are the kind of men who end up killing themselves, and men in their late 30s have the highest suicide rate...wonder why....Yet where is their association? Who is talking about their problems?

[DesertFlower]

1. you have my support.

my husband could be called "nerdy". he's average looking and not out going. he prefers watching science shows.

do you ever wonder what's going to happen to these attractive women when they get older and lose their looks? karma is a bitch.

[HEyHEY]

3. Who knows!?

It's just something I wish people would think about. Personally women have never been a problem for me, I'm outgoing and have no issues talking to members of the opposite sex.

But, I've seen some sad shit over the years and really feel for some of these guys. I think it is an under recognized problem in society how many men are made to feel worthless because they aren't studs.

[DesertFlower]

5. i saw it many years ago

when i was single and out in a club.

on the other hand many men make women feel inferior. it works both ways.

everyone needs to be cognizant of other people's feelings.

[Warpy]

12. Gee, almost as worthless as the women they sneer at

You know, the nerdy women who might have bad skin or whose parents couldn't afford an orthodontist, whose bodies might not be fashionably thin but who'd have a hell of a lot to talk about with those nerdy guys if those nerdy guys weren't trying to get next to the self absorbed supermodels who dump cigarette ashes into their hair.

Just saying. It does go both ways, you know.

[eShirl]

21. +1

been there

[HEyHEY]

25. Depends if they are like that or not

I find lots of these dudes are so inept that they can't even have casual convo. As well, sympathy exists for women in that situation, whereas most men are told to "get some balls"

[JustAnotherGen]

107. Disagree

The nerdy woman is told to lose weight, get her teeth fixed, get a boob job, get her ass lifted, etc. etc.

[readmoreoften]

205. +1

[raccoon]

46. That would be my guess too...that these nerdy guys were trying to get beautiful girlfriends. nt

[Amaril]

92. Ding, ding, ding!

Glad to know I'm not the only one who was thinking that.

Those pesky "double standards" are just everywhere, aren't they?

:evilgrin:

[HEyHEY]

95. Double standards? Actually the correct term would be "blaming the victim"

[uncommon]

100. Um, when the "victim" is perpetrating the behavior, it's not victim blaming.

[HEyHEY]

101. Yes it is, cause the only thing you are saying is that "All these young nerds are going for women

who are out of their league and desrve the humiliation." There's no proof to that at all.

Plus, I'm talking about men so lacking in self-esteem they wouldn't talk to ANY woman.

[Amaril]

118. Sorry if we made an incorrect assumption.........

.....about the exact point you were trying to make, but you were the one who used the scenario of the not-so-attractive guy (pipe cleaner hair? Are we supposed to assume that he's a male model based on that?) having ashes dumped in his hair by the hot chick.

[HEyHEY]

132. Yeah, that's a good point

SO please, tell me what the fucking point is?! I was saying the guy was tall and skinny, sorry you couldn't grasp that, but I believe our initial argument was about men treating women like shit and how even the akward guys who can't even TALK to a women and blow their fucking heads off at some point are somehow to blame...go on.

[DailyGrind51]

189. Besides, the use of the word "all" is a generalization about a specific group,

another word for that is "bigotry"!

[Warpy]

127. I'm not doing this in total absence of knowledge

I was that nerdy girl with baby fat, thick glasses, and my parents could afford those braces on my teeth. I was dissed by the nerdy guys as well as the ruling class.

When I was 16, I grew 4 inches, the baby fat redistributed into all the right places and the braces came off. I decided to leave the glasses at home because the world looked better slightly hazy. I never caused any traffic accidents, but guys did stare at me to the point of walking into lampposts and street signs.

All of a sudden, the nerdy guys realized I had something to say. Imagine that.

My post was involuntarily but well researched. Check your own behavior before you whine about women in general. You will find it sorely wanting.

[Crystal Clarity]

135. +1

I almost never do the +1 thing but that post deserved it. Thanks Warpy. :-)

[readmoreoften]

206. That was my experience. I actually know a nerdy guy who was a virgin into his 40s

because he wouldn't date a "fat chick." And he's not the only one. I've honestly never seen a nerdy girl humiliate a nerdy guy. Still, there's no fear of gang rape when a nerdy guy is rejected--unlike when a woman on the street is catcalled or approached by a group of men. This guy doesn't get it.

Of course there are wonderful men out there. But those men all tend to understand that they aren't oppressed by women who complain about violence against them. In fact, they usually hate men who harm women instead of making excuses for them.

[DailyGrind51]

216. Your own experience hardly meets the definition of "well researched".

As unfortunate as it may have been, what you experienced from your given sample of persons has little relevance for the greater population and is no more valid than concluding that because a few Muslims are terrorists that ALL Muslims must be terrorists. A generalization is a generalization.

[Warpy]

217. You still seem to think I live in some sort of bubble

but the truth is that the "nice guys" and "nerds" who whine that women won't give them the time of day are the problem, not women.

The problem is that set of as yet undiscovered male sex organs attached to their eyeballs that make them all blind to any woman who doesn't fit within the socially acceptable standards of pulchritude.

In other words, if you keep thinking women are the problem because you can't get anywhere with them, YOU are likely the real problem. Start there.

[Name removed]

228. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warpy]

231. Just a word of advice

Instead of bemoaning the hatred women have for men, which was the original post I responded to, whenever a woman points out some of the flaws in your own behavior that might lead to that impression, it might serve you better to examine your behavior to see if just maybe women are correct about it.

Just sayin.

[Chan790]

240. Uh...I don't have this problem.

I have one instead with misandry.

I don't need your critique of me either (Thank you anyways!) because I just don't give a damn about your opinion of my dating foibles. (Which take the form, if you care, that I seemingly only attract family-minded conservative Christian women who apparently didn't get the memorandum that I'm a voluntarily-sterile atheist militant radical leftist. Which is merely mildly frustrating but not cogent to the discussion at-hand.)

I just think one should call out all forms of bigotry, even the "acceptable" ones.

[Sherman A1]

14. Precisely

[w0nderer]

16. unfortunately

by that time they've already passed on the genes...and by raising the gene deposits, they've passed on the attitudes too

[Dawson Leery]

2. kick for support.

[HEyHEY]

4. I should add, the worst though is when some of these guys

Actually start getting dates and become total pricks.

[miyazaki]

11. Ha, living in Japan I l know exactly what you are saying.

The weird thing with me is that I don't look like a nerd but I really am one.
As my gf often reminds me, "you don't look like geek, but you are geek!!"

[HEyHEY]

27. I once saw a bunch of these guys in a pub and overheard them talking while waiting at the bar

Suddenly, the supreme dork squad that had never so much as kissed a girl before getting off the plane were all talking about how to juggle a couple girls. Fucking losers, I want to say, "Look, man, just remember what it was like for you. Don't turn into the people who abused you."

I don't know about Japan, but in China girls take things WAY more seriously, so you need to be aware of that unless you're a total asshole with no feelings.

[smalll]

34. Hey, most guys are not Mark Zuckerberg (thank God.) /nt

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

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[HEyHEY]

7. Martyr? When did I mention a thing about these men being a mass-murdering pricks?

Usually, the only person these poor souls shoot is themselves.

[Hello_Kitty]

9. Sometimes they shoot others before themselves.

:shrug:

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Demeter]

38. That's Just Disgusting

Build a relationship without sex first, if you want to have one last, or at all.

Women are not dying to have sex (and I mean that literally. With the disease, pregnancy, stalker and violence factors to consider, a sane, sensible woman wants to know a whole lot about a man BEFORE anything physical.)

And it's been a lot longer than 6 years...

Stop thinking of women as sex objects.

[HEyHEY]

73. I think his contention is that women don't think of HIM as a sex object

And when you're a man, that's just as offensive!!

[Demeter]

148. How would he know?

He's too busy being aggressive to give a girl a chance.

[eShirl]

41. "You can't imagine that can you? You're a woman."

wow.

[lukasahero]

74. Pay someone

and leave the rest of us alone.

Sex is not a right and women are not obligated to assuage you of your pent up sexual frustration.

At the very least, rent a movie and jack off. Stop expecting women to give you sex and maybe you'll get lucky a little more often.

[Amaril]

115. Wow, just wow.

That was so completely over the top, I can't even formulate a response (that isn't peppered liberally with F Bombs). I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

[ToppleTheTeaParty]

8. Oh lordy

I'm part of the nerdy group, and it doesn't bother me one damn bit. Why?
Because I have balls. I don't care.

Ever noticed how the biggest bullies are the bigger guys? Because they know if they let down their aggressive behavior, they will get clocked.

Don't worry about it. Work on the November campaign so we can keep control of the House & Senate.

Gingrich & Armey will be crying on November 3rd. Now those are two girly men. Hahah.

[HEyHEY]

19. See you're NOT part of that group

If you were, you wouldn't be saying things like "I have balls" cause these guys don't have balls.

[pnwmom]

10. I'm wondering what kind of women you approach.

Are you by any chance rejecting women for the same sorts of superficial reasons that other women are rejecting you?

Do you ever approach shy or awkward women? Or overweight or plain women? Or are you only interested in conventionally attractive, popular, outgoing girls?

[HEyHEY]

18. I'm all about nerdy awkward women, actually

My current girlfriend is a total dork.

[pnwmom]

129. Good for you -- you appreciate her for her good qualities,

just as you would expect her to appreciate you.

So the OP isn't so much on your own behalf, as it is geeky/nerdy men in general? I think the problem sometimes is that they tend to go for the flashy girls --the same ones everyone else is fighting over -- and then they feel worse when they don't succeed. And they don't have the over-inflated egos that some other guys do, to help them over the feelings of rejection.

[JerseygirlCT]

180. That's what I was wondering as well nt.

[Smarmie Doofus]

13. Interesting.

>>>>>>>Living in China I see many of these kind of men who have come here. They are the butt of everyone's jokes, especially the Expat women who still look and talk about them like they are complete shit. I have heard western women say horrible things when they see some super-awkward guy with his Chinese girlfriend. >>>>>>>>>

Does the above hold true for their treatment by the native Chinese population? Or is it strictly an American/western kind of phenomenon?

I'm trying to get a sense of whether or not this is a universal... or at least cross-cultural thing.

[HEyHEY]

20. I don't know if Chinese women don't care or don't notice cause they aren't the same race

I've been told though that being a nerd is considered sexy by some chinese women. ALso ,I think the fact they are white makes them exotic.

[JustAnotherGen]

109. How are the black men

Treated when they go there? Are the black American men looked down upon as they are in the US?

[wickerwoman]

230. It depends.

I lived in China for quite a long time. I saw awkward Western men with Chinese girlfriends several times a day and only once in five years did I see a Chinese man with a Western woman. I also got to enjoy sitting in an office with Western men bragging about making their Chinese wives do all the housework, talking about how much more "feminine" (i.e. subservient and tiny) Chinese women were and I got to live above an ex-pat "nerdy guy" who beat the shit out of his Chinese wife on a regular basis. Oh yeah, and another colleague who bragged about belting his Chinese girlfriend's three year old son because he walked in on them.

So I'm a bit biased. If Western women were saying "horrible things" about Western guys with Chinese girlfriends that's the context. A huge percentage of those relationships were exploitative as hell and involved emotional if not physical abuse. Naive Chinese girls wanting to get the hell out of China and be able to have more than one child throwing themselves at 50+ balding fat misogynistic men who took out decades of pent-up sexual frustration on them.

As for Chinese attitudes, they were kind of all over the place. I heard 18-19 year old girls gushing over how beautiful "mixed" babies were and showing off their Western boyfriends as a trophy to all their friends. Their mothers tended to be a bit more skeptical. Society at large doesn't condemn it though.

[Major Hogwash]

15. In the computer lab, of course.

I can copy that disk for you, Miss, if you want me to.

I met a gazillion young women that way.

LoL

[cowcommander]

17. Women don't like boring guys

[HEyHEY]

22. Who says they are boring?

Many are insanely smart and speak multiple languages and very wordly.

[bbdad]

26. Aw, go stuff it, buddy. Perhaps you should make ...

... an appointment with your medical doctor for a check-up just to be sure you haven't contracted an STD.

[bbdad]

29. To clarify, ...

... I was addressing cowcommander, not HEyHEY. ("Cow" in "cowcommander" must be how he refers to young women.)

[NuttyFluffers]

211. upper right corner of your post identifies who you are addressing, fyi

and, though it was probably good to say aloud that rebuke, i did find the use of cliche messages popping up in anime a humorous response. but then i love godzilla and men in rubber monster suits fighting to the death...

[bbdad]

222. Thanks for telling me. I'm new on the block; and ...

... I'm ignorant, too.

When I was a boy, I loved the blob (1958 version). I still do. :rofl:

[sendero]

40. Nailed it..

... been there done that, figured it all out, belatedly but better late than never.

[Anakin Skywalker]

23. Don't Feel Too Sorry for Bill Gates!

[bbdad]

24. When I was in high school and college, I didn't earn the ...

honor of being labeled a nerd or a geek, because I didn't apply myself to my studies as much as I should have. I'm sympathetic to your complaint, HEyHEY; but you must realize that young women who are contemptuous of nerds and geeks are not worthy of any decent man's attention. They're superficial and shallow. I knew such girls when I was in high school. They were called social climbers. I never had any desire to date any of them, because they were repulsive persons who lacked the inner beauty that makes a decent woman attractive. Perhaps such men have been looking in the wrong places. Superficial women are more likely to be found in bars and at parties than women who have substance. I've been happily married for over 30 years. I met my future wife in church. (Don't laugh. It's really true.) If I had married a social climber, I would've been miserable and quite likely would have ended up going through a bitter divorce. The men you refer to as "studs" aren't always as lucky as you'd think. A former junior-high classmate of mine appeared to be the biggest stud I'd ever met -- ruggedly handsome, physically strong, extroverted. He played football at his high school. When we were in junior high school, I felt that I was inferior to him. But forty years after he had graduated from high school, he had been married and divorced three times; and he now looks like an old man. I feel sorry for the guy.

I hear you about nerds and geeks being negatively stereotyped, but what you must remember is that the standards that the stereotyping is based upon are superficial. The sad reality is that our society is messed up. One of the greatest heroes of World War II was a nerd (yes, I would dare call him a nerd) who definitely was not a "stud." He was plain-looking, but his courage and compassion was extraordinary. I'm referring to the Swedish humanitarian Raoul Wallenberg. Ever hear of him?

(I'm repeating facts that I just mentioned in another post elsewhere in this website's forums, but who cares?)

Wallenberg could speak at least five languages fluently. During the 1930s he earned a degree in architecture at the University of Ann Arbor in the state of Michigan. (The university's Architecture Department is very demanding.) So, Wallenberg qualifies as a nerd!

When war had broken out, Wallenberg was running an import-export business with a Hungarian Jew who informed him of reports of the worsening situation of the Jews in Hungary. As you probably already know, Sweden was neutral in the war. Coming from a wealthy and influential family, Wallenberg prevailed upon Swedish government officials to send him to Budapest under diplomatic cover for the purpose of conducting rescue operations to save people's lives. These rescue operations were funded in part by the government of the United States. Surviving several assassination attempts, Wallenberg worked under horrendous stress, repeatedly putting his life on the line to save the lives of others. He saved the lives of more than 10,000 Jews. Possibly a lot more than that.

When the Red Army had driven the Germans out of Hungary, Wallenberg and his chauffeur (a Jewish coal miner whose life Wallenberg had saved) were abducted by agents of Stalin's brutal secret police to a notorious prison in Moscow where they were most likely tortured before they disappeared into the Soviet gulag. According to Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Wallenberg once was brought before the Soviet Foreign Minister, who offered him life as a free man in the Soviet Union in return for publicly denouncing the West. Remaining true to his principles (despite being forgotten by his country), Wallenberg rejected the offer and returned to the gulag. The date of his assumed death is disputed.

Wallenberg is only the third foreigner to be granted honorary American citizenship by the federal government. The Congressman who introduced the Wallenberg citizenship bill was Tom Lantos (Democrat of California), who had immigrated to the United States after the war. The only Holocaust survivor to ever serve in the U.S. Congress, Lantos was among the many Hungarian Jews whose lives Wallenberg had saved.

This extremely courageous and compassionate man, according to his half-sister, "detested competitive team sports." I'm not saying that not liking sports is a virtue, but I am saying that Wallenberg's manliness was shown apart from sports. Like I said, Wallenberg was a nerd. I'd say that Wallenberg was quite a role model for aspiring nerds and geeks! I don't know of any "stud" who could fill his shoes. So, HEyHEY, try not to be discouraged by the smallness of others.

Perhaps adult nerds and geeks should form an association that could provide encouragement to young "nerdish" nonathletic boys who have to grow up in our sports-saturated culture. They need to learn about the many great men who were nerds and geeks when they were young.

[HEyHEY]

28. Thanks for the post, but I really wasnt' talking about myself

I'm a really talkative guy and can mix in any crowd fairly easily. But, I just see some of these guys around and feel bad for them. Especially when I hear how some people talk about them. It is true, the shallowness of our society contributes to this. But, I find with men it is a taboo subject as, even though there are gentlemen, the jockular (Sp??) of men makes talking about this kind of thing very rare. ANd often, afflicted men are just told to "be a man"

We all get some abuse at some point in our lives, some more than others, and until a brother can overcome that shit they can never "Be a man." Too many young men out there are permanent victims. IT's really, really sad.

[bbdad]

31. Sorry about that. I understand now. You're to be ...

... commended for being concerned about these other men. Even though I don't qualify as a nerd or a geek, I think this issue is worth discussing. There should be some sort of support group for these guys. They need to develop a sense of self-worth that is not dependent upon what jerks say about them (such as cowcommander, no doubt). These guys need to be reached when they're still kids. I'm very sympathetic to these guys. They need to reach a point where they just don't care what the jerks of the world say. I still think a support group would be a good idea.

[HEyHEY]

32. Again, the support group come in the form of "how to pick up chicks" classes

Of which I have a funny story, my friend worked in a community centre and it used to host a "how to talk to women" type seminar on tuesday for men. After the class she'd be trying to do her job and all these guys would come up and try using the stuff they're learned that day.... next class "When trying to meet a woman is appropriate."

But, because true support groups for these types don't exists, I think the best thing they can have is solid friends. Guys who will really watch out for them and be supportive, but not in a "I feel sorry for you way" in the "guy" way. You know, swearing and talking like cavemen. I've been out with such guys and I think their BIGGEST problem isn't women so much as not feeling accepted by (for lack of a better term) regular guys.

[comtec]

134. you do realize you said heresy here right?

to even breathe that there should be a support group of any kind for men is complete blasphemy!
i speak from experience.
no amount of guaranteeing that it won't become a den of venom and hate is enough to convince the great goddesses of DU to allow such a thing!

and yes I was one of those guys.
I had a better time of finding women interested in me in college, intellectual women have a better time of seeing past the outside, and to what a decent person you are.

But the rules are 180' from what women SAY they want, sadly.

Be a decent guy, always mind your Ps and Qs, be polite yet respectful... very rarely do you even get a phone call.

Be a jerk, treat women like scum... yeah, I always hated those guys too, but they always got the girls.

I suppose the truth is somewhere in between. despite everything, I still care about my ex, and I want her to find happiness, despite everything.

I think the worst part, in general, is the realization that women aren't the cherubic angels we are often told they are, and that they don't WANT men who are going to be decent to them.

Just like boys of the same age, they want Fabio. There is nothing wrong with that, but it's disingenuous to scream that it's a lie too.

[haele]

149. Actually, I think it's more of a self-confidence issue -

Sexuality may be part of the problem of the geek, but in my own nerdy people-watching experience - (sometimes I feel as if my superpower is to be a super-voyeur)- the problem seems to come from almost paralyzing fear of "others", poor social skills and/or the in-ability to filter the non-verbal cues in a public setting- ultimately, to be confident that you are in control of your situation at the time.

The situation get exacerbated when harassment and bullying come into the picture -
Being harassed and bullied is the slow trickle of destruction to any sense of self-confidence and will hobble any small steps towards self-confidence. Being a harasser or bully tends to give one a transient sense of power, and can be very addicting to someone who has been a victim in the past. It's almost a lizard-brain reaction to a situation where there is a sense of personal weakness.
If those states of power/powerlessness can be dealt with honestly, a lot of social problems we have as a society can be mitigated, and we can be a healthier, more accepting species.

Haele

[NuttyFluffers]

212. i too have that wonder twins power, super-voyeur!

yeah, young men are socialized in a pretty ruthless system, just like young women. however, as there has been decades of women studies introspection about young women being abused as they grow up, the work on young men is considerably newer. it seems to be women studies challenged things by asking the "unasked questions" and this led to an a-ha moment of researchers then trying to ask similar questions about male dynamics.

males are often socialized into thinking of things in polarized extremes. somehow since the prime defining mechanism is negative definition ("thou are not woman") the end result is binary thinking and strict reinforcement. you'll find often times nuance, ambiguity, and shades of value are harder to hear in male speech. often things are "the best" or "the worst" when speaking of emotional valuation of things. and paragons of masculinity are distant goals all men are expected to achieve -- and if not possible, a bland neutral of acceptable must be maintained at great cost.

this obviously leads to the bullying abuse you mention and the lack of socializing experience. interestingly enough, i find men less socialized because socializing events for them tend to be competitions for status and trying to maintain a borderline value to remain in the group. sure women do the same in their own way. but men can gather together and end up staying glued to sports on the tube, or talk about a lot of nothing mixed with braggadocio, and end up having very little in the way of real listening friendship. this silent consensus to imprison discussions of feelings in order to maintain manhood ranking among peers is perhaps the greatest detriment to socializing males.

when humans can finally learn to talk amongst themselves freely without the restraint of social expectations, it will be a great day for both genders. we could all use more interaction with others in order to learn how to empathize and raise our perception.

[LanternWaste]

168. my 15tth level wizard just received the Sword of Xoomador. Pretty sexy, huh?

"Too many young men out there are permanent victims. IT's really, really sad...."

And too many other young men simply perceive themselves to be victims of the world because X number of women have said "no" to them, thus the self-appointed victims blame it on anyone who won't go out with them regardless of the reason and the self-reinforced cycle continues.

On the other side of the fence are the guys who have been told no X amount of times, and hence engage themselves in a period of self reflection and examination-- changing those superficial things about themselves to better accommodate a more positive result.

If I ask out 100 women and each one says no, I have a choice-- blame 100 women for being "mean", or applying at least part and parcel of the blame to myself and proactively changing those things if I so wish.

It certainly worked for me in college after I found out that "Hey sweety-- my 15tth level wizard just received the Sword of Xoomador. Pretty sexy, huh? Wanna go out...?" doesn't go over very well.

[Confusious]

176. Boy that is one shallow post.

Completely devoid of any understanding.

The 15th level wizard with the sword of some shit says it all.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

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[HEyHEY]

36. YEah, women have many other challenges

Cetainly the security issue is a big one. I just wish some attention was paid to the high suicide rates of men in there late 30s It's very worrying.

[Demeter]

37. Why Do Nerdy Men Go After Such Shallow, Evil Girls?

There are many kinds of women. Find the kind that appreciates you.

Stop judging the book by its cover.


And who said parties are the place to be to find a girl? Or clubs? If you want to be asphyxiated by smoke and embarrassed by drunks, maybe.

[HEyHEY]

43. WHo says they do?

Most of them are too afraid to go after ANY woman.

[HughBeaumont]

39. If I hadn't married my HS best friend, I'd likely still be single.

There are just too many RULES, RULES, RULES.

They don't like nice guys, they don't like shallow guys, they don't like dickheads, assholes, slackers, stoners, career-firsters, commit-o-phobes, dorks, spazzes, geeks, nerds, douchebags, whitebreads, man-whores, guys who don't meet pre-determined criteria on their checklist that you're supposed to mind-read. They don't date co-workers, men in bars, men in clubs, men with jeans shorts, men who have no fashion sense, men who are too forward, men who just sit there, men who are introverted, mama's boys, launch-failures, over-confidence, under-confidence, poets, "sensitives", men who aren't well read or aloof men. Don't approach women. Don't talk. Don't stare. Keep your fucking trap shut. Don't comment. JUST. DON'T.

It's really not even worth playing these fucking games. I really feel for anyone single out there. It can't be easy to break through this pile of Sphinx riddles.

And I think the problem with that other thread is that, while the cartoon does make a point, the tone of the discussion that followed was set early: "Men, PLEASE JUST DON'T COMMENT. YOU DON'T GET IT AND YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND EVEN IF YOU SAY YOU DO." It was pretty much a kettle of fish waiting for the bullets. Then the defensive bingos followed, blah blah blah. It's like a clique of "more enlightened than thou"s crossed that bridge and blew it up when they were on the other side. They didn't want correct responses or answers, they wanted wrong ones, which they would then proceeded to dogpile on. And some of the responses were just downright lousy. It was a test that very few of us would be able to pass no matter how progressive you say you are.

This is why I just stay the fuck out of those kinds of things. Every red flag told me to just stay out of it and I went in it anyway. No more.

[Edweird]

238. Too many women project their personal preferences and hang ups on "all women".

That's why it seems that way. There are women that like nice guys and there are women for antisocial deviants like myself. It's a big place out there and there's lots to choose from.

[sendero]

42. Being mean to someone...

... is unacceptable but "blaming" women (or men for that matter) for what they find attractive is equally bad.

It's all about the biology and it is not a decision.

[HEyHEY]

44. Really, do you make this argument when the shoe is on the other foot?

Cause it's easy to say so, but when it comes to it many wouldn't

[sendero]

183. I'm a "geeky" male...

... it took me a while to understand it but it's really simple if you think about it.

Biologically, we are all programmed to look for certain things in a mate.

If anything, I'm annoyed at myself for taking so long to see the obvious :)

[Erose999]

45. I think the whole "romantic comedy" and "Nicholas Sparks" phenomenon has warped the perceptions that

some women have as to what to expect from relationships and initial encounters with men. Although you could say it goes as far back as Shakespeare and the "courtly love" tropes, etc. I think nowadays that effect is multiplied because its marketed to children at younger ages.

[OJones]

47. "Does anyone care?"

This is the M.O. of gender equality: acceptance of everyone, everywhere in the gender presentation bell curve. So, feminist theorists care. I know that the trans community critiques gender presentation all the time.

But I have a bone to pick. Why do the battles of black people always have to be counted on to provide the litmus test for how insulting something is? If only Godwin had discussed this! Maybe I wouldn't hear it everyday. Does no one else raise hell at insult? This rhetorical device puts black battles-- which have little to do with most of the arguments-- up for constant examination, and potential take-down. It's like sticking someone else's neck out, and I find it callous.

[HEyHEY]

56. Well, to tell you the truth, I was going to use an example of gay people

BUt didn't feel like stirring that pot. Cause on DU it's all about hating other progressives.

[MissB]

48. Nerdy people- boys or girls- have always been on the outskirts of the social scene

It isn't likely to change.

I think the conversations have to start early. It's been eye opening to watch my kids grow up. I'm raising a couple of nerdy boys. Their parents happen to be nerdy (both engineers). Each kid is 4 years ahead of their peers in math, and prefer science to any crappy popular culture fad.

Their school doesn't allow bullying. It's small enough that everyone knows literally everyone else's kids. That said, bright kids get marginalized socially around middle school, especially in a wealthy school district. I can pretty much predict how things will go- I can only continue the conversations about what their future after college will look like and relate to them our experiences and then hope that a fraction of it sinks in enough to give them the self confidence to survive amongst a group of kids, some of whom will never get past their middle school mentality.

We went to dh's 30 th class reunion last year. He was a geek all thru high school. He is successful. Many f his popular classmates were not. He now is seen in a very different light.

[krabigirl]

125. I dunno, but the CEOs of google, and etc sure don't seem to be doing so badly.

Speaking as a proud geek girl btw.

[Diclotican]

227. krabigirl

krabigirl

The CEOs of Google et all, have a lot of money, he pretty womans would like to have their hands om if they are smart... Many nerdy pepole dosen't have to mutch money to play with.. If I have TWO billion US dollar to play with I could have all the womans in the world, and I could shoose whatever my taste is.. Thats the FACT of the CEOs of Google et all...

Diclotican

a really geeek male by the way...

[chillspike]

236. But being a "nerd/geek" can be so rewarding today

There is so much out there for them: Science, The Next generation of Apple's and Mobile devices, Computer languages, Digital Art, Music, The Internet, Game Technology, Archeology, Space, Cosmology, endless areas of knowledge and exploration to satisfy and bring happiness to a precocious mind . It's the ones that teeter between being a "nerd" and a "ccol" kid that have the difficulties.

If they are going to be "nerds" I would make sure they go all the way with it that way they will be the most productive at it. Let them play it to a T. To do that they will need to find like minded friends if they don't have an interest they can pursue all by themselves. Whether it's a business idea or a band, they are not going to get anywhere if the friends they have access to only want to get stoned and shoot out windows with BB guns.

[Evasporque]

49. It is all about self esteem...

I work in IT and there are plenty of nerdy, introverted guys that I have worked with over the years.

One guy rocked in his cube and was difficult to talk to, was a classic wispy nerd who moved like a praying mantis....But at his home for a party he gave for close friends (whom I was honored to be among) he was completely different, at ease and relaxed and I met his wife for the first time. Who was a doctoral candidate (from Asia...lol) and she was very beautiful. He btw always dressed in really nice clothes. He found he liked the quality of top apparel. His house, a modern ranch decked out Asian with a lovely garden and lots of art from around the world. It is not that western girls did not like him...they didn't appeal to him. He is a kind generous wonderful person.

Another guy super smart and ranks very high on the neo-nerd column with a bizarre sense of humor that goes beyond most people's comprehension and thick black 50's glasses...he swapped those for a pair of snazzy Dolche and Gabbana frames and a new hair cut and he was transformed from twitchy oddball to a dashing eccentric egg head.


It is amazing what a few simple vain, selfish things can do for you. Hold your head up, buy some cool clothes and sport some ray bans and you won't get ashes flicked on you. Yes it is vain...but it is fun.

[seabeyond]

50. hm... hh. interesting. especially considering recent posts of yours... telling women

to suck it up, and quite stridently.

i think these men are treated about the same, as women are treated by men if they do not meet certain criteria. and we have all see that. and we see it often on du, comments made by men, about women, if they dont meet standards.

i will be consistent in saying, .... mean, insensitive, ugly is just that. all of that. and anyone who is ugly to another person says a whole lot about them. not much about the person they are projecting it onto.

when a woman does that to a man that does not meet her standards, and i have seen it, she is below contempt. and always, i would reach otu to the guy

ugly is ugly.

regardless.

and i am sorry for any person that has to experience this at the hands of society. much empathy.

[seabeyond]

51. what i am finding interesting is the different directions you are taking in your post.

why i am remembering them. you seem to be here, then go there and then back here.

questions like.... how long have you been in china? is it an eye opener? what are you going thru in awareness? because of the posts, it really seems like this is a memorable experience for you, in whatever ways. adn i do find it interesting. and curious.

[HEyHEY]

58. China is schizo and it's making me into one too

What it really is, is that I'm arguing about how messages are delivered. Not about the message. I'm very pro women's rights. And I fully recognize injustices women still face. But that doesn't mean that I'll let people spew hatred that divides us all and offends me personally.

[seabeyond]

79. lol

China is schizo

see, lol, this. it is kinda what i am feeling. cute.

[HEyHEY]

82. IT really is though

Things change from one day to the next. Some days I can't wait to get home so I can enjoy how much sense everything makes.

[HEyHEY]

57. I've never told women to suck it up

I've expressed distaste for people making arguments about sexual politics framed in a way I find to be insulting to my gender. That's it.

[MadHound]

52. As an official nerd, let me ask you one question,

When the hell are you going to grow up and get out of high school. Sorry, but once you get out of high school, into college and into your adult years, these things simply matter less and less, until they don't matter at all. There is no Ogre Palowaski following you around screaming "NERD!" at every turn.

Yes, some guys get treated horribly by certain women, but geez dude, look at how men, including nerdy ones, treat women.

And as you grow and change, you can grow out of that nerd image, if you allow yourself to.

Fixating on this your entire life simply holds you and your development back, keeping you at a high school level. It is time to move on and move up with your life.

Oh, and most of the guys I see with Oriental brides tend be very conservative and they are looking for wives that are obedient and subservient, something that is hard to find in this country whether you're a nerd or not.

[seabeyond]

53. d*mn, i like this post.

for my own understanding and insight. thanks.

and really, so simple

[HEyHEY]

55. Yeah, but it's a racist statement.

I laugh so hard whenever I hear expat women get all uppity about young men who lack confidence dating Asian girls. It has nothing to do with them being "subservient" as the racist post explained. It has to do with them just being nice to the guys because they don't have pre-conceived notions of what a desirable man is.

As well, telling young men with self-esteem problems rooted in years of rejection to "suck it up" is pure bullshit. Half of these type of men are so socially awkward they barely are able to talk to other men.

As well, here, in CHina most expats I know are raging lefties, so there goes the conservative woman-hater theory down the tube.

IT's all together just a bit of bigotry that seems to be tolerated that "all men who have an asian girlfriend are a bunch of conservatives who beat their wives" it's just not true.

[MadHound]

60. Nice way to try and demonize me,

But your post simply shows up that we have differing vantage points. You are dealing with what is going on in China, I'm dealing with what goes on here in the US.

But since you don't like my post, you're trying to smear me as some sort of racist. Nice try, but a fail nonetheless.

[HEyHEY]

63. Not trying to smear you, I'm saying the statement is racist

And sorry about that BTW. Certainly not meaning to be a dink to you.

[MadHound]

67. No problem,

But the fact is that Oriental women are perceived, at least in this country, to be subservient and obedient to their husbands. I used to work at Kinko's and would see these catalogs of women from these marriage brokers who would state just that, promising that men could get a subservient and obedient wife from the Orient. It is disgusting, it isn't true, but that is the perception.

Thanks for the apology, the disadvantage of talking on the intertubes, something is lost in the translation.:hi:

[woolldog]

167. your use of the word "Oriental" isn't PC.

fyi....

[seabeyond]

76. well, tht was not so much the interesting part of the post for me.

the unfortunate thing with net and board is the interaction. the part talking about conservatives for submission really flew by me, because that is making an observation that might be and might not be. i am clueless so i dont go there. not my business. it was the other part of the post i found interesting. the going beyond high school, and taking who you are, rejoicing adn embracing. that it is ours to create, once out of high school adn growing up. i get that and there is truth in it.

and reality... there are cultural norms that factor into it. there is a reality to that. but not going into that with your post because that isnt what interested me in all this.

[HEyHEY]

54. Ah, so the "Get some balls" mentality slathered together with some racism.

First of all, my post was not about me. I do just fine talking to groups of people or women. I'm speaking for a ton of young men that do not and are just told to "be a man" like you just did.

And your "subservient asian woman" bs is typical of racist attitudes I hear lots of expat women say. Fact of the matter is, CHinese women are not subservient. IN fact, they control all the money in the house and are usually the dominant ones in relationships, but feel free to spout racist nonese.

[MadHound]

59. No, not get some balls, grow the fuck up

Staying in a position in life where you worry about being nerdy simply does you no good. Such an attitude holds you back at a high school level.

There are tons of young men who grow out of this and develop themselves. It is usually forced upon them in college to some extent or another, but just the course of real life will do the same. Again, there is no label on the back of these men singling them out. When you get out of high school you have a chance for a fresh start. The vast majority of men take advantage of it and do grow up, learn how to interact not just with women, but with people in general.

And while what you say might be true in China, over here the fact of the matter is that conservative men do look for Oriental women because of the commonly held believe that they are subservient and obedient, not because the women overlook, understand and cherish their nerdiness. Don't believe me, check out the lines run out by the many companies that specialize in hooking up American men with foreign brides.

Your advice to these young men is counterproductive, you are enabling them to retain a label and self image that is harmful to them. Stop it, tell them that their past disappears once they graduate from high school, and that they can remake themselves how they see fit. Yes, they might be nervous speaking to groups of people, so are many people, including non-nerds. They might not be comfortable in the bar scene, but again, so are lots of non-nerd people. But the fact of the matter is that they can grow up beyond being a nerd, be true to themselves, and be comfortable with who they are.

[HEyHEY]

62. Not that easy

Telling someone to grow up does not negate years of wounds to their self esteem, self esteem can't just magically appear. I've met men in their late 20s who stutter anytime another man looks them in the eye. That's fuck, that's not a case of growing up, that's serious psychological issues, man. As well, I dont' see me giving men any advice. I'm saying that there is an issue in our society in which we allow young men to fall to the wayside from an early age.


And I think there's a difference between nerds moving to China when they are young and 50-year-old nutjobs looking for a wife on the internet. Of course the bottom of the totem pole is pervos going to thailand.

But, just cause it's a commonly held belief Asian girls do what they're told doesn't make it so. I'm with a Chinese woman now and a few years back dated a Korean and let me tell you NEITHER one of them does a damn thing they don't want to.

Also, quick note... "Oriental" is considered offensive by many.

[MadHound]

84. But many times it is that easy,

Getting out of high school is liberating for most people, not just nerds. You get away from a Lord of the Flies community that has pounded you into a certain hole, whether you want to be there or not. Many of the men that I knew in high school who were considered nerds went on to have great lives, got married, and aren't haunted by being considered a nerd in high school. In many cases, it is even a concious process, they simply find that they can talk with a stranger, shed a label in college and go on with life. I was a nerd in high school. Highly intelligent, member of the debate squad, I was a nerd and was treated as such. I got out of high school, met an entirely different set of people and friends, and found I went from stuttering my ass off trying to ask a girl out in high school to being able to hold an intelligent, lively conversation with a woman who was charmed by my intelligence and humor(not being an astonishingly good looking man, I found that a sense of humor was vital).

I've talked to other guys about this, and really, it does seem like a fairly natural process of finally blooming, of finally growing up. High school boundaries are extremely confining, and when you escape from them, great things happen. Most men find this out on their own, and again, the growing and maturing process isn't a concious one, but it simply happens. The ones that don't go through this process, at least in my experience, are the ones who have had those high school labels burned into their psyche so deep that this natural process doesn't happen and something or somebody has to shake them up for it to occur. These men probably do need help in some form or fashion, but the root problem seems to be that they just need to move beyond high school, they need to finish growing up.

So, on terminology, what is appropriate? Oriental, Asian, what?

[HEyHEY]

86. "Asian"

Though I say oriental sometimes too, just want to help you avoid getting into a dustup with someone later.

Though, it's not like ALL asians look alike. the world is a confusing ball of mud.

[MadHound]

104. Thank you,

These days, in my outlook and as much as possible in my discourse, I simply try to stick with the word "people". That's what we all are, people.

[HEyHEY]

87. "Asian"

Though I say oriental sometimes too, just want to help you avoid getting into a dustup with someone later.

Though, it's not like ALL asians look alike. the world is a confusing ball of mud.

[NuttyFluffers]

213. "East Asian" specifically. Asia's very big.

now with South, South East, and Central Asians gaining more in American consciousness, it makes no sense to have a handful of countries represent an immense continent. but it takes time for people to transition to new terms -- have many an older relative say "Oriental" and i don't bother to correct them, sometimes getting through the day without losing their glasses can be hard enough. :) (ooh, i was Agist there! didja see that! O_o)

[HysteryDiagnosis]

155. Got support over here boss....

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_2OaBJfY-Sc8/SZLfRKlODXI/AAAAAAAABHU/mo7N1FxpLJk/s400/jock+strap.jpg

[haele]

218. In anthropology, most older cultures would cull out excess young men.

That wouldn't happen with women, as they could be viewed as more useful around the community - and childbirth issues - be they fatalities or just part of the natural cyclical - tended to keep the community stressing numbers down.
In more "civilized" cultures, they used religious institutions as a dumping ground for the less virile, more introspective young men.
In less "civilized" cultures, they'd use war or just expel them as competition to the older males.
Now, we have throw-away kids that become tools for gangs - once they stopped being "a baby" - young, cute, and helpless they weren't important enough to have community resources "wasted" on them. And
all mammals tend to do this.

Reading this thread is reminding me of the Joe Jackson song "Real Men".
People are objectified by societal norms because it's easier to just make meme shells (he's middle class and a nerd, he'll always do X,Y, or Z and is only good for <FITB>, she's poor and a tease, and will always do A,B, or C and her value to society is <FITB>) and then leave them there, pulling all the opportunities these people can use to grow within themselves out over the 10-15 years that they're young adults.
Suck it up and grow up, young man (or young woman) - if you don't fit in to the scheme of things, if you can't get out of the place you're in, there's just no place for you.
Doesn't matter if you're 13 or 31, you just don't belong here if we can't put a label on you and jam you into a social slot or if you can't buy your way out of the crucible.
Cruel, but that's how it has been done for the past 10,000 years. Even in "matriarchal" societies.

The questions are:
1) is this still a valid model of social engineering - to just ostracize or otherwise get rid of the excess young people when times are tough?
2) How would we change this social attitude if this is not a valid model? How do we incorporate people who make us uncomfortable or otherwise "just don't fit"? which leads to -
3) Do we force change on the individual, or do we change the society?

As an observation, just due to scale - changing a large society is a lot more difficult than changing an individual. That's why bullying and harassment - blaming the victim - can be accepted and is done even within this thread and the others. If they don't fit in the social construct everyone else is living in, then it's open season until they get driven out.

Y'know, the main reason I'm in this thread and not the other, is that I've experienced and witnessed gender harassment over the years.
The issue in the other thread is discussed openly and is pretty cut and dry.
Yes, when it can be done anonymously, many men - usually not in a secure environment themselves - feel they have the right to pretend they're the heroes in their own private movie and will casually objectify women in passing. And think it's a complement, because they'd probably like to be enviously admired, called a stud, or have "cute" women come up and banter with them.
Yes, it's wrong, and demeaning, and damaging to be objectified. Yes, many times it wore me down and fucked me up when I was younger and thought there was something wrong with me.

However, women tend to have a better social network for themselves and those that don't "fit" (not always - there are the Queen Bee clubs), and more resources available to help them deal with socially re-enforced victimization and self-confidence issues.
In most secular cultures, it is getting to be less socially acceptable to use gender to harass women out of public, social or work venues and such behavior is shown more often than not as the actions of a less worthy, insecure, trashy or perverted man who just is not a proper grown-up.
Whether it's an "us against the patriarchy" outlook or just an evolution of a nurturing trait, most women can reach out to other women for support and not be faced with some sort Hobson's choice of pretending to be more "womanly" to be accepted or to remain outcast.
Unless, of course, the woman is stuck in a religious fundamentalist society - but even then, there are many organizations dedicated to getting her out of that situation if she doesn't fit in there.

But men have been experiencing a decrease in that sort of support - unless they join an organization (like a fraternal order or the military), and even then, it's more about putting on a suit and a mask to fit in, rather than confront the issues and become stronger and more confident about their own selves.
Back in the day, a man that wasn't "manly" could retreat into other settings (that are now considered female enclaves - like academia, social and commercial support functions, or research) and not be looked down on.
Currently, men's support is not based on supporting what they are, but on what stereotype their social environment perceives them to be. And most of those places still ham-handedly re-enforce victimization stereotypes (Suck it up and be a man - You don't want to be a p***y, do you? If you do, then you've got to be gay and need to go over to that group there...) rather than self-realization.
The cultural default for the extraneous young man who doesn't have a set role is still to ostracize.

Haele

[Artie Bucco]

124. Well said

I myself am a nerd. I was extremely awkward in high school, had bad skin and was borderline obese according to the BMI index so by and large my high school experience was pretty bad. After high school things started to change I got a warehousing job and lost forty pounds (going from 190 to 150) and I went to college. The college environment is easy to meet people, my university has clubs and organizations dedicated to "nerdy" stuff like video games and anime. College is a really good place to meet people with similar interests as yourself. If there is one thing I recommend to boosting your self-esteem is having the confidence to go to a bar or to a show by yourself. I still am way nerdy and people don't tend to judge you for that in college. I like my video games, my books and my foreign movies.

I used to think just like the original poster I used to think that I was walking around with a huge mark on me and people would think "this guy is too poor, too nerdy, too awkward and too Mexican to talk to." but that is not the case at all most people don't think like that and if they do they aren't worth hanging around with anyway.

[snooper2]

66. Ah, so you are the cool guy sticking up for the poor nerds

This thread is greatness :rofl:

FYI- The second you have the courage to leave a known environment and travel thousands of miles away, your nerd factor goes down by 38.71%.

[HEyHEY]

68. I am, sadly, too old to be cool

And my hair is thinning... and I now own man-boobs yet women won't accept me :cry:

And I'm not sticking up for nerds so much as for a problem in our society that leads to insane amounts of suicide and depression.

[snooper2]

85. Nerds are off-ing themselves at a high rate in China?

Or are you talking about society in the states?

(Oh, and you might want to clarify nerd vs. introvert.)

There's a guy at my work who only a few of us can really talk too. Lots of folks think he is just "nerdy", but he's really an introvert who loves being alone. Folks would be shocked if they new he picks up hookers downtown every once in a while.

He also just took delivery of a brand new Ariel Atom which is the single coolest fucking piece of machinery ever created on this planet :)

[HEyHEY]

89. In the west

Men who have been beaten down by peers much of their lives have the highest suicide rate.

[yella_dawg]

94. Sorry.

Been there, done that, you're wrong. The scars in high school never really healed. And guess what. Women don't automatically have it worse than men in every situation. That knee-jerk is getting really worn out.

[MadHound]

108. Did you ever allow them heal?

Did you, when you got out of high school, get away from the place you lived, or the high school crowd and found someplace, some group that was completely different?

Scars don't heal unless you stop picking at the scabs all the time. Trust me, I know, for I have many, many scars, both physically and psychologically.

[yella_dawg]

113. No doubt it's all my fault.

Thanks for the kindness.

[MadHound]

114. Not blaming you, asking you a question.

Reason I asked this question is from my own personal experience. I grew up with a bipolar, abusive father who made my life hell while I was growing up. I internalized the message that it was all my fault, that I deserved this abuse. It took a lot of work and time before I jettisoned that baggage and felt liberated. But in the meantime, I was picking at those scabs all the time, not allowing the healing to take place

People need to learn to let go of certain things about their past, otherwise it will consume them and make their life miserable. I learned that one the hard way, perhaps you are following the same path as well. Just passing on some advice, take it or leave it as you choose.

[Confusious]

136. There's a difference between things that are "untrue" and "true"

I don't have any better words for it then "untrue" and "true"

Things like a parent hitting you and making you feel like it's your fault are untrue, these things are untrue and can be cast off.

Things like liking science fiction, computers, comic books, anime, which society consider "nerdy" is impossible. should someone stop doing what they like and start watching sports, when they can't stand sports? ( boring BTW ) If someone was to do that, they would be lying to themselves even more, and worse, then a parent making them feel something. That would be them doing it to themselves.

i.e. "white and nerdy" by weird al ( geek tag for even knowing the name )

[Codeine]

198. Computers, comics, and science fiction are all mainstream subjects.

Adults are rarely ostracized for being fans of these things. And - believe it or not - the majority of adults ignore sports for the most part; they just do not care.

Anime carries some negative connotations, but that's because it is unrelentingly awful once you get past the best material. It is also as misogynistic as fuck.

[Confusious]

234. That all depends

If you're having a conversation about why one shouldn't use 'printf' in a 'C' program due to buffer overflows, or watching a science fiction program such as "star trek", where all people who watch it are portrayed in a 'nerd' light, you're wrong.

If you can barely use a computer, or watch 'heros', that's OK.

Ignorance is the new cool, or else why would glenn beck be so popular?

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chrisa]

150. I agree.

[Nikia]

61. Often it is other men who put down "nerdy" men

Starting when they are boys, earlier than when most boys date. By the time, most boys start dating, the nerdy boy already feels that he is inferior. Sometimes, there is even physical intimidation by other boys if the nerdy boy tries to get a date with a desireable girl. Girls may feel pressure not to date boys who are seen as socially inferior by other girls or boys that they might want to date in the future. The same thing happens with nerdy girls too, although boys might be more likely to have sex with them, but not a relationship. As adults, some but not people have moved past the high school social order. Even, if a nerdy person is away from people like this, they often feel unconfident from their past experiences. I think that with both sexes, acceptance by friends of the same sex is just as important as acceptance by members of the opposite sex. People with friends are seen as more attractive than loners too.

[izzybeans]

64. Nerds are cool again - like pink shirts in the 80s - the hipster kids love 'em again.

Haven't you seen the ridiculous glasses the cool kids where these days?

Come to Chicago, you'll be the coolest kid around. waifey men with taped up glasses and tight button down shirts and pants one size too small. That's so hot right now.

[HEyHEY]

70. Yeah, but those aren't REAL nerds. Those are cool guys dressed like nerds

[izzybeans]

88. Most of them have nothing interesting to say, though. Nerds do.

[HEyHEY]

91. Yeah, hipsters are like roaches.

And more fun to step on.

[newportdadde]

65. You could add short men to that list as well.

Its not really an issue for me personally as I'm married now but I still experience it at 5'7''. Taller men, even grown men will try to intimidate us, like by not sharing a hallway(make the short guy squeeze over and move). For most women at our height or taller we are non existant as far as a dating options, for women shorter its not much better but you have a shot I guess, maybe.

[HEyHEY]

69. Yeah, good point

My friend, Jay used to deal with that shit all the time too.

[snooper2]

72. Add folks with oversized foreheads as well

you know all the bullshit they have to take?

Also not gender specific

[HEyHEY]

80. Or unibrows

[MadHound]

102. There's the flip side to that as well,

As a tall guy, 6'5", I have more than once been mistaken as the dumb one. I have been thought to only be fit for manual type labor. I have been considered scary and dangerous, not because of anything I've done, but because of my size, because I "loom" over everyone. You have no clue as to how depressing that is, that people won't go beyond your height in judging your character.

Then as a tall man, you get to deal with this contingent of short men, not every short man, but there is a fairly large group, who feel they must prove themselves physically by fighting a tall man. More than once I've been minding my own business, in a bar, in cafe, in public, when I would be accosted by some tough short guy who wants to pick a fight with me in order to prove himself. You have no clue as to how much of a pain in the ass that is.

And let's not even get into how much more expensive clothes are for a tall guy, or how uncomfortable one has to make oneself in order to fit into seats and spaces that are designed with people eight inches shorter in mind. One of the reasons I always wanted my own house was so I could remodel kitchens and cabinets to my own size instead of killing my back stooping over a countertop designed for the "average" height in order to chop vegetables and prepare meals. One of the most joyous days in my life was when I was able to install a showerhead that was high enough to for me to stand under it rather than having the spray hit me in the middle of the chest.

There are advantage and disadvantages to every size, don't think that tall guys have it made, we don't. And in the end, many of us pay dearly for our height as we age, with more severe joint problems due to our height. Oh, and that guy who bumped you in the hall, consider that he might not be trying to intimidate you, but rather he was already over as far as he could go in a confined space.

One thing about tall women, that I got from by wife, sister and other tall female friends and family. Many of them prefer to date taller men, at least when they're young, because men who are shorter than them tend to snuggle their heads down in the chest region when dancing, hugging, etc. Apparently this is very, very annoying. And on the flip side, I have heard many women state that they won't go out with men over a certain height because they don't won't to have to stretch to kiss, or don't want to feel loomed over. Know how depressing that is when you think you've found this wonderful woman who is on the petite size?

There is prejudice on both sides of the height divide, something that we all could work on.

[HEyHEY]

103. This could be the funniest unintentional joke in a long time

"More than once I've been minding my own business, in a bar, in cafe, in public, when I would be accosted by some tough short guy who wants to pick a fight with me in order to prove himself. You have no clue as to how much of a pain in the ass that is."

[MadHound]

110. LOL! But it's true!

Hell, I took a beer mug upside the head one time at a bar. Swung by some short fool with full force, whose introductory comment was "Hey big guy, show us how tough you are against me!" Hell, I had a concussion because this guy wanted to prove he was tough. Pain in the head, pain in the ass, pain all the way around.

Most of the time I just walked away though. Why bother.

[Javaman]

116. me, also being of the tall variety, let me ask you a question...

do you find yourself hitting your head a lot?

I know I'm a spaz, but damn, do I hit my head a lot.

[MadHound]

117. Not so much now that I'm fully grown,

But when I was shooting up during my teen years it seemed like I was whacking my head on something new everyday. Then again there was some days when I grew an inch overnight, literally.

When I reached my full height it got less frequent, but I still have to pay attention in unfamiliar places or I'll whack it good. Can't always assume I'll fit through the door or under that beam, etc.

[Nay]

121. As a woman, I never understood why most women think tall is better.

Honestly, there are a couple of guys at work who, if I wasn't old and married, I'd go after in a heartbeat. I'm 5 foot 6 inches and they both are a couple of inches shorter than me -- ie, very short -- and I'd jump on them in a second. I have always liked men who are no more than a couple or 3 inches taller than I. Mr Nay is about 5'8.5" and that's as tall as I can stand.

I have dated tall men, but found them a 'bad fit' physically, whatever that means. Oh, and a post above talks about tall men 'looming' over others, and that may have been the problem for me. As a woman who has been accosted/chased/attacked a couple of times by large men, I just may have a psychological aversion to tall men. Not that some short strong guy couldn't also dump me on my ass and do what he wanted, but...

[MadHound]

122. And that breaks the heart of every single tall straight male in the country

Seriously, do you realize that no matter how intelligent, good looking, funny, etc. you are, you're going to be rejected out of hand because of your height? It can be devastating. What is wrong with a tall man, especially if all the other variables mentioned above match up well, why does height have to be the deal breaker?

[Nay]

128. There's nothing 'wrong' with tall men. All I said was that I preferred

shorter men just for the physical fit issue, and maybe a psychological issue of my own. I have certainly dated tall men and not rejected them out of hand just for height. It's simply a preference. We all have preferences, I'm pretty sure.

[Withywindle]

241. One of the best (male) lays I ever had was a total hobbit.

Short (several inches shorter than me), chubby, and hairy. But he was an incredibly gifted musician, he had the most amazing silver-gray eyes, and--this is very important--he could make me laugh until I peed.

And in bed, well--he had a *reverence* for women's bodies that showed loud and clear. He was willing and eager to try anything. (He was still hilarious--never underestimate the power of really funny sexual banter, for women who like that sort of thing)

He said that he was a nerd in high school. That he never thought any woman would want him at the time. I could see it - chubby, thick glasses, immigrant parents, obsession with obscure music. I bet he did have it hard. But when I had my short fling with him, he was kind of a local rock star and had been with a lot of women and was just on the rebound from a long term relationship.

It didn't make him bitter or jaded or entitled--it gave him an appreciation for women, and a very palpable sense of boyish happiness whenever one wanted to get naked with him, like Santa had just brought him the present he'd always wanted. And that was very sexy to me--not because I felt superior or anything (hell no, I loved his music, I looked up to him) but because sincere enthusiasm is a turn-on and a sense of entitlement is not.

Also, y'know, the funny thing. That's a high priority for me. In my experience, people with no sense of humor are always lousy lays.

[JVS]

71. This should get interesting if it hasn't already.

:popcorn:

[HEyHEY]

77. Lucky for me, I'm about to hit the bar

It's almost 10:30 pm here.

[JVS]

81. Will you come back and post in this thread after drinking at the bar?

I'm starting my workday here and would love to start cocktail hour by seeing those fireworks

:popcorn:

[HEyHEY]

83. I shall try to be worthy of my charge!

[snooper2]

90. Find the nerdiest guy in the bar and make his night..

By him a shot and a beer right off the bat...

I want a full interview given and in depth analysis when you come back

If you get him drunk, you are responsible for getting him home :)

[HEyHEY]

93. I'm not hanging out with the "girl away" crowd, dude. I'm trying to score...

I'm kidding. Tonight shall be spent hanging out with my friend from back home and his girlfriend.

[CBR]

75. I have noticed that often the nerdiest guys are the ones who

have an ideal woman in their minds (tall, thin, model looking) and pass up many of the great women around them while living in some fantasy world.

[HEyHEY]

78. Thos guys are chumps!

I grew outta that shit at around 25 and just started dating everyone. Now, the kinda girl I'd have gone for at 22 I wouldn't even want as a friend now, I met way too many awesome women along the way.

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. Here's my thing.

This disparity between what constitutes insensitivity to guys and what constitutes insensitivity to women (the former is usually considered humor or a team-building exercise) has political ramifications. In fact, at DU suppressing the former is frowned upon on the basis that it constitutes the latter; e.g. discussing a mens forum.

The double standard is very real. However, unless you are being persecuted for a disability, I feel about the same way when reading this as I do when reading a post complaining about the lack of support for obese people.

I think DU should be a catalyst for positive political change, not an all-purpose support group.

[HEyHEY]

97. Well, my complaint was more based toward society, not DU

I do agree though. To much dividing here.

[EstimatedProphet]

98. I had very little luck until I met my wife

I'm sure I'd still be single had I not.

The problem with relationships is, there are far too many immature, entitled people of both sexes. They don't look at anything other than as a way to impress people, or increase their status, and that includes relationships. People who look at other people as a commodity for their public image sicken me, and we generate people like that in droves in this country.

[HEyHEY]

99. Yeah, it is a problem

But, at least in the USA many recognize that it's a problem. IN some places it's seen as a fact of life and totally acceptable. ANd I doubt you'd still be single, handsome young swashbuckler like yourself?!

[EstimatedProphet]

219. Ha!

Best laugh of the day!

[krabigirl]

126. Most people suck...it is sad to say but most are brainwashed.

[Confusious]

151. I like frozen strawberries myself. Nt

[cleverusername]

105. Find another nerd

I already married my nerd. Maybe you should find a female nerd? Focus less on looks? Learn some more social skills with women? There are a lot of smart women who are looking for a good partner.

[HEyHEY]

106. This ain't about me

I'm happily...relationed.

I'm talking about dudes so scared they can't talk to women period.

[Kablooie]

111. Did you know that in real life, Don Knotts was a ladies man.

If he can do it...

[madmom]

112. When I was in high school I was considered one of "those" girls...... I

was about 120lbs,big boobs, 5'8", long brown hair, big blue eyes (I was told I had "wonder woman eyes" for those of you who remember Linda Carter). I was hit on all the time by jocks and the "in" guys when I moved to a new high school at 16. When they found out I was a "reader" I was like totally weird to them. I dated a few but found them totally uninteresting because at that age all they were interested in was sex. When they found out that wasn't going to happen they went elsewhere. BUT the rumors did fly. I found out YEARS later that one guy, who I never even went out with, told my future husband that he "got my cherry". It still pisses me off to this day. How I wish that someone nerdish would have stood up and talked to me.

[LanternWaste]

120. I would imagine that were I get to "shit on" by a woman...

I would imagine that were I get to "shit on" by a woman, it's much more indicative of my own personality than it is of an endemic demographic problem.

Each specific anecdote you've offered simply is not unique to the "nerdy-young-white-guy" characteristic-- it's across the board. :shrug:

[krabigirl]

123. Speaking as a woman, women can be downright evil. Next time, just laugh in their face.

Can't stand women like that. Btw the geeks run the world now anyway.

[BoneDaddy]

130. Be careful

in here when bringing up men's needs, especially if you are white. It doesn't go over too well.

[HEyHEY]

133. The sad thing is...

I really, for all purposes that relate to my life, shouldn't care. But I'm tired of seeing young men who are inept at social graces slitting their own wrists.

[Odin2005]

131. Do what this nerd does, find other nerds!

[Confusious]

137. Nerd POOOOWWWERRRR!

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[miyazaki]

154. Yeah! I've always found the nerd girls more attractive.

Many times, they don't even realize how beautiful they really are.

[Odin2005]

243. Yup!

[superduperfarleft]

138. Man, if those stupid bitches would just give it up, this wouldn't be a problem.

Seriously ladies, next time you see a "nerdy-type man" you have a responsibility to put out. You don't want this on your conscience, do you?

[Confusious]

139. Way to be dismissive. nt

[superduperfarleft]

140. Oh cry me a fucking river.

OP is only doing this because some women dared to have another thread about street harassment, and he got all butthurt after being called out as a chauvinist ass.

Making his issue about women, as he did in the OP, is quite frankly creepy.

[Confusious]

141. you're making the issue about women.

I see it as how some people are treated, and you're a perfect example of bad behavior we're talking about.

[superduperfarleft]

142. Did you even read the OP?

Its all about "nerdy-type men" that can't get women (with no mention of "nerdy-type" women who are equally ignored by those very same men).

[Confusious]

143. Did you?

Or are you just reading things into it?

"So, here's a question does society realize, or even give a shit about the millions of young men in the west who are made to feel weak, nerdy, or unattractive by women? Does anyone care about their self-esteem? Does anyone care about their humiliation?"

"I really, for all purposes that relate to my life, shouldn't care. But I'm tired of seeing young men who are inept at social graces slitting their own wrists."

Doesn't seem to me that he's talking about getting women. It's about being humiliated by women.

Or are you just assuming that he wants to get those women? I would think if he wanted to talk about that, he would have put that in the OP in plain words.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

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[LanternWaste]

157. Many non-issues are dismissive in and of themselves.

Many non-issues are dismissive in and of themselves.

[Name removed]

160. Deleted message

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[Confusious]

171. Meaning?

Bullying and abuse only matter if you're female?

[chrisa]

144. UnRec.

There are male and female bullies. That girl you used in the cigarette example probably secretly goes home at night and hates herself.

Sounds like you're talking from personal experience, but I think your issue isn't with just women. It's with humanity as a whole, and our strange tendency to get pleasure from others' misery.

However, I can't stand male whining about how women are shallow and don't like nice guys because A, it isn't true, and B, there's equal amounts of bad people in both sexes. Men are actually the pickier, and more shallow of the two.

[Confusious]

146. Sorry, but I don't think that came up in the OP

"However, I can't stand male whining about how women are shallow and don't like nice guys because A, it isn't true, and B, there's equal amounts of bad people in both sexes. Men are actually the pickier, and more shallow of the two."

It's more about how men can be mean, but so can women. This country needs a little more work on social graces, and not to bully people.

[chrisa]

147. nm

But I agree that many people in the US need help with socializing. Anybody can be a jerk, eventhough there's no reason to be one.

[haele]

145. Back in 1984, a young sailor who worked another shift at my shore base - a true "geek"

Shy, small, and mousey-looking, he was teased and scorned by some of the younger woman in our shop (As one of the other shift supervisors, I had already pulled one or two aside to call on the carpet for that when I overheard their gossip, and got all sorts of surly excuses for why it was okay to lead him on just to humiliate him), bullied by most of the guys in our shop for being weird, for being too geeky, for being to afraid to work in the labs and mock-ups alone after midnight.
Finally, one night, when his only friend was on 30 days of leave, he came to the shop, car packed with all his worldly goods and the pistol his older brother gave him earlier that year to make him "more manly" hidden in his backpack.
At four or so in the morning, while everyone on his shift was starting on their lunch break, he went out to the hallway and shot himself in the head with his brother's pistol in front of his entire shift.
I had talked to him once or twice a few months prior, he wasn't a bad kid - he was your typical band and book nerd (like I was) - maybe a bit on the autistic side, but pretty harmless. He wasn't really looking for anything other than a friend or two and a little safe zone where he could grow, but they just wouldn't let him alone, not in the barracks, not at the shop, not anywhere around where he could hang out.

Bullying is devastating, no matter the gender, age, family standing, or social/work status. It's mental abuse inflicted on the less powerful by the more powerful.
And it's probably the only form of abuse that is constantly considered psychologically justified by both abusers (including potential abusers) and professional victims alike because it's generally based on establishing a pecking order of values. Everyone can bully to make themselves feel better and place themselves above the victim. Even victims of other types of bullying or abuse will bully those they perceive as being weaker or more vulnerable. And do it without a twinge of guilt.

Haele

[lpbk2713]

152. It hurts to read this.

Did it cause any noticeable change in the behavior of any of his tormentors for the better after that?
I'd hope his tragic death wasn't a total waste.

[haele]

162. Perhaps some - not all

A lot of tears and shock when it first happened, but as I was stationed there for another three years, I saw about a quarter of his tormentors of both genders had returned to their old tricks within a couple months.
The command did change a few of their policies regarding personal responsibilties (that's what they called all non-sexual harrassment policies back then) and created a stronger support structure for people who were being singled out for personal reasons. The support didn't go far enough to stop harrassment, it was more of a place to vent, but it was a start.

Haele

[Frank Booth]

214. Usually the suicide victim is just mocked more for being weak.

Forget the fact that it takes an incredible amount of courage to pull the trigger.

Simply put, most people are mean. There must have been an evolutionary benefit to excluding those perceived as being weaker, because the trait seems to be built into most people's brain.

[JackDragna]

153. I've known plenty of nerdy men..

..and plenty of nerdy women. The ones that tend to date get along with each other and, at the least, have the capacity to show warmth and empathy to others. The ones that never seem to date, by and large, suffer from "nice guy" syndrome, where they complain bitterly about women, but never turn their focus on the qualities of humanity upon themselves. The permanently dateless, I've found, are often judgmental know-it-alls who combine their arrogance with any number of other social faux-pas, including poor grooming or odious personal habits. I know, because I see it in men I know and I used to be one of these people.

There is a price to be paid, like it or not, for thinking differently from others. I know how cruel people can be, men and women alike. Yet, I've found camaraderie in people like me when I stopped taking myself so seriously and tried to get along. I also stopped giving a damn about what clubgoers and bar patrons thought about me, a suggestion I strongly pass on to you. If you judge women based on the cross-section of them that show up to those kinds of places, you'll come away with the impression that they, like the men who go there, are vapid, boorish idiots. Yet those people don't matter in the long run.

Nerdy men, just like nerdy women, get a bad rap and are abused and stigmatized by society. Every society has an outgroup. I've found it much more productive, as a member of that group myself, to learn to get along with people in the same boat than paint others with a broad brush.

[miyazaki]

158. Nice post. n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

156. Oh, yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.....

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

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[butterfly77]

163. I myself find that...

the nerdy looking guys are usually the sexy ones if you really get down to it sometimes a certain woman can bring out their sexyness or can see it more than others, but some just look for the obvious..or should I say they are more interesting.

[Hello_Kitty]

164. What, exactly, are women obligated to do for these guys?

Should women commit to drawing socially awkward men into conversation at least three times a week? A certain number of dates with "nerds" per year? How about pity fucks? Are they required too?

I mean, since apparently the psychological and emotional well-being of these guys is entirely the responsibility of women. And of course men are entitled to sex on demand from any pussy vending machine um I mean woman they encounter.

Oh, and about those meeeeeaaan expat women. As a gaijin stationed in Japan for three years in the 90s I well remember being subjected to endless commentary from my gaijin male counterparts about how Japanese women were sooooo much better than those uppity demanding Western bitches. That shit went both ways, pal.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Confusious]

172. The OP stated nothing you said in your diatribe.

It's about abuse, that men can suffer it from women, and that we all need to learn to be civil, which you have proved.

[Hello_Kitty]

185. Oh bullshit. Being rejected is not abuse.

He cited one example of a woman engaged in truly bullying behavior toward a man (the anecdote of the woman dumping ashes into the man's hair). But he interwove it with the usual entitled whining of "nice guys" who feel butthurt because they aren't getting the hot poontang they feel they so richly deserve. He seems to think it's abusive of women not to go out of their way to make "nerdy"* guys feel comfortable.

Please. Go read the website Ben Quayle was posting on for awhile and talk to me about abuse.

[Confusious]

195. Really? Did we read the same OP?

I see him saying something about be laughed at for even saying hello, really doesn't rise to the level of " she wouldn't have sex with me "

I personally think your reading you own biases into what he wrote, besides being nasty.

[Hello_Kitty]

245. I think he brought a buttload of his own entitlement issues into his OP

As many respondents to this thread have pointed out.

So, here's a question does society realize, or even give a shit about the millions of young men in the west who are made to feel weak, nerdy, or unattractive by women? Does anyone care about their self-esteem? Does anyone care about their humiliation?

Is he fucking SERIOUS?? The standard plot of something like one out of every three books/plays/movie/TV plots ever written is the following: "Lovable schlub persuades hot babe to love him!" Society, at least in the form of entertainment media, seems to care about nerdy un-fucked men a lot more than it cares about sexually disenfranchised women.

Let's not even get started on industries built around propping up the egos and libidos of men of all stripes. Stripping and prostitution give even the most nerdy and awkward of men an outlet to feel superior to any and all women.

[Name removed]

224. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hello_Kitty]

244. "Conceited" AND "promiscuous"?

Oh well, shit. So sorry that I didn't realize what was going on here. Those sluts DESERVE to be humiliated! Considering themselves attractive AND being sexually active! The NERVE of them! Naturally they should have photos of themselves be published on a website without their consent and have random men attack them viciously. I mean, seriously, who do these bitches think they are, anyway?

[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kat45]

165. Are a lot of nerdy white guys moving to China?

That's what it sounds like from your OP. I just find it strange that a number of people have the money, ability, language skills, job prospects to up and move to another country, particularly one with such a different culture and language. China has such a huge population. Do they let a lot of foreigners move there? Help me out here; I'm confused by this.

[HEyHEY]

200. Well, such guys have been coming to Asia forever

But here in China there's tons of English teaching positions. That usually draws them in cause it's an easy gig to get. There's hundreds of thousands of foreigners living in China, myself included. We work in media, finance, NGOs all that stuff.

[entanglement]

169. Why do you feel the need to drag in Black people into your self-pitying diatribe?

Maybe there is a kernel of truth somewhere in your OP, but people who complain about "would you say that about Black people" are typically either racists or have a really weak argument. FYI, plenty of offensive and vile sh*t is being spewed against Black people ALL the time, in the media and on radio. Your assertion to the effect that some kind of higher standard governs behavior toward Black people is, frankly speaking, a lie.

[Confusious]

173. It's an example. Nt

[HEyHEY]

199. It's a fucking example. I was going to use gay people but figured that would cause trouble

Because you can't even use a fucking vowel on this website anymore without someone making a federal case of it. ANd it wasn't a self-pitying diatribe, showing you either didn't read it propeerly or are incapable of grasping what I was saying because of your preconceived bias.

[Skittles]

170. HERE

I fallen for quite a few nerdy types; yes INDEED

[Uzybone]

174. very funny

[Confusious]

175. Yea it is isn't it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9066537&mesg_id=9070417

[Freetradesucks]

177. So you have some self-esteem issues,

and it's the worlds responsibility to give you a pep talk? Jesus Christ man, go find a nerdy girl to date and stop crying. There is someone for everyone.

[bbdad]

182. HEyHEY isn't referring to himself. He's referring to ...

... other men. I do agree with you, though, that there's someone for everyone. (At least that's what I'd like to believe.) As for me, I've been happily married for years; but I still feel for these guys.

[Freetradesucks]

184. "He's not referring to himself, he is referring to other men"

:rofl:

I usually find it annoying when people use that smiley, but in this case I think it fits perfectly.

[bbdad]

186. But that's what HEyHEY has said. At first, I was ...

... under the impression, just as you believe, that he was talking about himself; so, I wrote a lengthy post (No. 24) for the purpose of trying to encourage him. But in Post No. 28 he responded by saying "Thanks for the post, but I really wasn't talking about myself I'm a really talkative guy and can mix in any crowd fairly easily. But, I just see some of these guys around and feel bad for them." I assume you think he's lying or deceiving himself. You're certainly entitled to your view, and I will defend your right to say it. :rofl: It's no big deal. But he seems to be a nice guy; so, I wanted to defend him.

[HEyHEY]

188. Sorry, dude

There's a shitload of duers who have met me in person that will tell you I am not a socially awkward, shy man. I'm also not single. But, you know what? What if this thread WAS about me? Would that be subject to ridicule?

That's what I'm on about, you people just pick and pick at these poors guys and pretend its okay.

[liquid diamond]

225. He wasn't talking about himself. n/t

[Drale]

178. No one cares

and it seems like all the nice girls I meet who id like to go out with are dating ass wholes who coulding find the on buttom on a computer in their life depended on it, but because they are good looking that seems not to matter. It really sucks.

[JerseygirlCT]

179. No one can make you feel less -

unless you allow that.

What type of women are you pursuing who "make you feel" weak, nerdy or unattractive?

And since you mention "attractive" women, are looks part of your criteria?

[HEyHEY]

187. I'm not pursuing any women

I'm not even talking about myself here. I'm talking about the men out there who have been wounded so much in life that they are incapable of interacting with not only women, but regular men.

[JVS]

190. They're trying to dismiss you as a loser simply for bringing it up.

[HEyHEY]

191. Oh, I know... I knew they would

And as I pointed out just above what if I was one of these guys? Would that somehow make my opinions invalid because I'm just a weak pussy in their eyes?

It really is a joke. COuld you imagine going on this site and saying "Well, if ugly women would stop going after attractive men they wouldn't get their hearts broken" ?

The gates of hell would open.

[JVS]

192. This entire topic is nearly a complete non-starter.

Some of the women in this thread feel that the topic points a finger at them, which is fair enough but not essentially different from how that recent cartoon thread or a discussion of teen body issues implicates men.

Some posters simply dismiss the issue (or claim that the issue dismisses itself ???).

Some men are going to take the opportunity to differentiate themselves from the people you describe and boast about how successful and confident they are. By doing this they are pretty much demonstrating the "fuck those losers who can't hack it" mentality.

[bbdad]

194. Sounds conservative, doesn't it? And I thought liberals were ...

... compassionate.

[JerseygirlCT]

207. But you seem to be saying that they hold no responsibility for that

That's what's bothering me.

If they allow other people to shape who they are, and cede any responsibility themselves, then why be surprised when they're not the people other people want to be with?

[aikoaiko]

181. !

Claire Standish: You know why guys like you knock everything?
John Bender: Oh, this should be stunning.
Claire Standish: It's because you're afraid.
John Bender: Oh God, you richies are so smart, that's exactly why I'm not heavy into activities.
Claire Standish: You're a big coward.
Brian Johnson: I'm in the math club.
Claire Standish: See, you're afraid that they won't take you, you don't belong, so you have to just dump all over it.
John Bender: Well, it wouldn't have anything to do with you activities people being assholes, now would it?
Claire Standish: Well, you wouldn't know, you don't even know any of us.
John Bender: Well, I don't know any lepers, but I'm not going to run out and join one of their fucking clubs.
Andrew Clark: Hey. Let's watch the mouth, huh?
Brian Johnson: I'm in the physics club too.
John Bender: Excuse me a sec. What are you babbling about?
Brian Johnson: Well, what I had said was I'm in the math club, uh, the Latin, and the physics club... physics club.
John Bender: Hey, Cherry. Do you belong to the physics club?
Claire Standish: That's an academic club.
John Bender: So?
Claire Standish: So academic clubs aren't the same as other kinds of clubs.
John Bender: Ah... but to dorks like him, they are. What do you guys do in your club?
Brian Johnson: Well, in physics we... we talk about physics, properties of physics.
John Bender: So it's sorta social, demented and sad, but social. Right?

[pinboy3niner]

193. UNREC, and I'll tell you why...

Your OP was prompted by your reaction to another thread which featured a cartoon about the experience of WOMEN.

As much as someone may misinterpret or read into the cartoon things that are not there, the cartoon was only about the experience of WOMEN. It was not about US.

So you post about shy men supposedly VICTIMIZED by women. So I have to ask myself, what's missing here? Could it be any consideration of shy women victimized by men? I have to wonder why you tell such a one-sided story.

Your issue here seems to apply to both men and women (even though you don't admit that), while the other thread addressed the truth of sexual harrassment and abuse experienced almost exclusively by women.

To tell you the truth, I love that cartoon--and it didn't make ME feel the least bit defensive, or cause me to think I needed to put up some post defending my (male) gender.

[HEyHEY]

196. Because all we get on DU is the one sided story from the women's perspective

Yet, I post a thread from the other side and get demonized. The fucking blindness of this website is stupifying. There's only ever one side of the any sexual issue told. And if, as I just did, someone brings up the other side we get "Well, what about men doing that to women" if I go on one of those other threads and turn the tables I'm called all sorts of nasty names.

Also

"Your issue here seems to apply to both men and women (even though you don't admit that), while the other thread addressed the truth of sexual harrassment and abuse experienced almost exclusively by women."

No, my issue applied to MEN because, unlike women, men in this situation have no voice. There has never been a movement to empower such men, and you'll even see people in this thread further degrading such men. Can't you even see that?

[pinboy3niner]

202. WOW! Hard to know where to begin...

You think you're 'demonized' and DU is afflicted by 'blindness'. Very nice.

I could just as easily call your view misogynistic. You pretend to give a 'voice' (your voice) to 'empower' some subgroup of men who you argue are treated unjustly, but your heroic defense of these guys excludes women who may be in the very same position.

You accuse DU of taking 'one side' as if there is some kind of gender equality in our society and advocacy for greater equality is unjustified.

"Can't you even see that?" I'm afraid that the response I want to make to you would violate the rules. Suffice it to say that I think you have a very distorted, F'd up way of seeing things...

[readmoreoften]

204. +1

As if geeky women aren't abused by frat boy types. This sounds to me like the whole "What about black people who won't like white people? Isn't that racism?!!" These are institutionalized, structural, social problems. They're not individual problems. "Geeky" men being abused by bigger men and trophy women is a ramification of sexism/anti-woman sentiments. It's not a new form of oppression of men by women.

[JerseygirlCT]

208. I agree

I'm sorry, but the generalized cry of "poor men have no one advocating for them" reads to me along the same lines as "poor white people are so discriminated against".

Are there men out there who live on the margins, who aren't very popular, and don't know how to interact with other people? Sure. Is that entirely the fault of other people? No.

And as you say, there are, likewise, plenty of women living on those same margins, with the same issues.

(Except, it's likely they're making 79 cents to the man's dollar at their job...)

[HEyHEY]

246. Whatever, know how many men will blow their fucking heads off today?

No, and you don't even care, do you?

Fucked up way? You're the one defend the abuse of already vctimized people, not me.

[adoraz]

220. I get what you're saying, however

I think there is a much greater pressure on "nerdy" guys than "nerdy" girls.

by nerdy, I mean scrawny, shy, etc. If a girl is small and scrawny, society is not nearly as cruel to them. Society says men are suppose to be big and confident.

What he said in the OP is 100% correct. I would add that "bigger" or even regular men are often cruel to nerdy men as well. It isn't just women.

And yes, DU is definitely more sided towards females. That isn't really debatable lol.

[liquid diamond]

226. This bears repeating.

"And yes, DU is definitely more sided towards females. That isn't really debatable lol."

[Codeine]

197. I was a nerdy kid and I'm now a nerdy adult.

I've never had much difficulty at all with women simply because I do not treat them like an inscrutable and potentially dangerous alien species. I just treat them like people - normal folks with hopes and fears and nerves and issues just like me.

[pinboy3niner]

203. Thanks for your 'nerd's-eye' view

We seem to have some stereotype of so-called nerds that doesn't do justice to the group, just as many other stereotypes only serve to distort the characteristics of individuals into some 'type' that that doesn't fit the reality.

"Nerd' is a pretty useless term to describe anyone, the way it's broad-brushed on so many individuals.

[JerseygirlCT]

209. Excellently said

You illustrate the point I've been trying to make through this.

If you let the high school type social strata define you for life, well... you probably get what you deserve.

[bbdad]

221. A thought just occurred to me about your observation ...

... concerning people who allow high-school social strata to define them for life with a detrimental effect. Wouldn't you say this applies to other groupings besides so-called nerds? I've noticed that there are also people who were popular in high school (for whatever reason) who spend their lives reliving their past glory.

[JerseygirlCT]

239. Oh absolutely

You know, I remember even back in HS thinking perhaps the top of the hill, popular kids - usually jocks - might very well be at their best right then, and wouldn't ever be quite as important again.

Of course, like anything, that's a gross generalization. Some were probably all they were going to be then - but others grew beyond that, I'm sure. I'd like to think most of us grew for the better!

I know I was surprised when many years later, one person who'd definitely been near the top of that oh so strict HS social strata said she'd always wished she'd spent more time with my friends, instead.

Turns out that cheerleader wasn't near all she was - she's a very successful author now and teacher. And yes, hanging with artsy nerds like me more would probably have suited her better then!

[NuttyFluffers]

210. people are owed respect for being humans. just common courtesy.

however, no one is owed a date -- and others are not responsible for a person's self esteem after rejection.

that said, people who are cruel (and women, being people, are no exception to having cruel members among them) are assholes of the first order. there is no reason to mock, ridicule, abuse, etc. people in the middle of rejection, or in any situation really, unless the desire is to be cruel. and people cruel to other people suck.

that's pretty much it.

(however, there is a weird subcategory of fetishists who travel to East Asia and give nerdy white guys a very bad reputation... that's probably another topic. to me, fetishism is acceptable in consensual adult play, with guideline rules and safe words. living it out in real life without understanding the boundaries and artificiality of the situation is rather a no-no to me.)

[Frank Booth]

215. K&R

Well, it's actually too late too rec, but you raised an issue that NEVER gets discussed. I don't think there's a solution to the problem, but I'm glad to see that other people recognize it.

[joshcryer]

223. Why are you hanging out with people who can't share your interests?

Seriously. It never ceases to amaze me square guys going to clubs or shit hanging out with people they could never appreciate.

[dimbear]

229. Good point. A little advice:

Not the type women go for? Leave women alone. It's a big world, with lots of fun things to do. Feel the need for sexual gratification? That's what the internet was invented for.

You'll end up rich from all the money you don't spend on them.

Leave women alone. It takes a certain amount of courage, but remember this--real men don't get lonely.

Name your sportscar after one of those girls who snubbed you. Or your dog. Have a good life.

[chillspike]

233. I would add

...seek the brainier type of women with ethics who won't reject someone for how they look. My guess is the OP is unconsciously not really attracted to the club type of women but gets frustrated because he thinks he should be. Just change the type of women you look for. Look for a bookwormy science type female.

[chillspike]

232. maybe it's not really about what the women like

but about what YOU like. maybe you are not attracted to superficial, insensitive women. even cool guys get mentally beat up by physically hot women but they persevere because they are willing to tolerate the abuse because they want to get with shallow, insensitive women. so maybe you are confusing something that everyone goes through as a personal battle when it's not. you just won't tolerate those type of women. you need the brainy type like yourself.

it took me a long time to figure this out about myself but i eventually came to the conclusion that the problem was mostly ME. my disgust with hot women being rough on me was not exactly their fault. it was my fault for thinking i wanted those type of women when i really didn't. i unconsciously wanted the brainy and sensitive loner type women and my disgust with the hot, superficial females wasn't because they didn't want me, it was because i didn't want THEM but didn't know it.

so now when some hot and shallow girl doesn't think i'm good enough for her, it's not a problem because i realize i'm not attracted to her.

[RandomThoughts]

235. I never thought that way about women.

Weather hot and shallow or smart and deep.

Of coarse they would be attracted to me. :P

:shrug:

[chillspike]

237. well, maybe you should start

:P

[RandomThoughts]

247. Start what? I think I started long ago.

Start Me Up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW4DPIBO5OU


and one more thing.

The flu in the movie The Stand, might have been a chimney flue, or even flying.

so shrug, depends how you see it.


Love it when they mod a video or song. :rofl:

[Withywindle]

242. You know what? This issue is valid. BUT...

positing it as some kind of heroic underdog resistance to all the threads about sexual harassment of women is not and will never be fair or just. Why?

Well, when it comes right down to it, it's this:

1) Men fear being rejected and laughed at and humiliated by women.

2) Women fear being raped and murdered by men.


Being rejected/laughed at/humiliated SUCKS. I'm a woman, and I've experienced it too. It's not right and I don't wish it on anyone.

But it's not even remotely comparable to being raped. I've experienced that too, so I know the difference very well. Obviously I've never been murdered, but two female friends of mine have been (one by a boyfriend, one by a stranger who raped her first).

Do you get the difference in the stakes we're talking about?