General Discussion

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)

289. You also missed the possibility that....

Mon Aug 4, 2014, 04:17 PM

Aug 2014

the disease was contracted outside of the medical facility (where everyone wears protective clothing and extreme precautions are employed.)

For all of your ranting, you simply DON'T KNOW how the disease was contracted by the US citizens abroad.....and if there was a failure at the medical facility 100% of the facility workers would be sick.

These doctors and health workers presumambly had lives outside of the facility that included not being suited up from head to toe in some sort of a viral barrier. That is not the case once the patient arrived in the USA. There will be no contct outside of the facility.

sheesh...get off the alarmist bandwagon and think it through...or you could contact Trump. Your alarmist rhetoric has a champion you may appreciate.

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Ebola patients, US citizens, are being evacuated to the U.S. from Liberia. [View all] pnwmom Jul 2014 OP

what could possibly go wrong with this? nt msongs Jul 2014 #1

Ask me again in a month -- Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2014 #14

This should not be allowed LittleBlue Jul 2014 #2

So we should put third-world health workers in jeopardy while they treat these patients? msanthrope Jul 2014 #5

Missionaries. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #6

These poor bastards. They are Americans, and we should take care of our own. nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #8

They knew the risk when they decided to evangelize their religion. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #9

As an atheist, I get what you are saying. But as an American, I think we have two duties: msanthrope Jul 2014 #16

Our citizens voluntarily went to Liberia and worked with Ebola pateints there. LisaL Jul 2014 #32

so just effing leave them wherever CreekDog Jul 2014 #207

and how you would treat Veterans that contract a contagious virus while in combat? Sheepshank Aug 2014 #288

But in this case Liberia welcomed our citizens to provide medical care for their citizens. pnwmom Jul 2014 #90

You don't see the duty to Liberia????? Perhaps you should look up the history of Liberia. nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #111

I don't think we have a particular duty in this situation, not. The doctors involved pnwmom Jul 2014 #115

We have a duty to our American citizens. Should you ever travel overseas, I hope you never face the msanthrope Jul 2014 #120

Do we not have a duty to American citizens that are already here? LisaL Jul 2014 #129

Yes. Can you explain how you are at risk for Ebola? nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #136

I have traveled overseas. If I ever contracted Ebola in my travels, I would HOPE the US... MohRokTah Jul 2014 #151

I would hope that in the default situation that these Americans find themselves in, they would. msanthrope Jul 2014 #167

Well, trained medical professionals who understand how Ebola is spread have contracted the disease. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #173

You missed number 4. Jenoch Jul 2014 #189

All three combined includes any permutation of "Shit happens". eom MohRokTah Jul 2014 #192

Numbers 1 and 2 do not fit your thoughts. Jenoch Jul 2014 #228

It went airborne. Perhaps the CDC just wants the bodies intact if they cannot treat msanthrope Jul 2014 #204

I doubt it went airborne. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #206

You also missed the possibility that.... Sheepshank Aug 2014 #289

You missed multiple postings by me after it was made clear proper precautions were being taken. MohRokTah Aug 2014 #290

yes...I saw it down thread...too bad you didn't state the correction up thread. Sheepshank Aug 2014 #292

I agree with your findings. MohRokTah Aug 2014 #296

Not to mention there is a vaccine to be tested starting in September....to conclude in January.... VanillaRhapsody Jul 2014 #178

But what the CDC is saying is that the reason the disease has been contained to Africa pnwmom Aug 2014 #238

As an American I get what you are saying. But as a human being, I think we have one duty MohRokTah Jul 2014 #150

So because they believe in Jesus they're BAD? XemaSab Jul 2014 #54

No because they evangelize a religion they are rude. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #84

That's for the third world country in question to decide, not you. whathehell Jul 2014 #102

They knew the risks. They contracted a deadly virus. They should never be allowed back in the US. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #153

You seem to be predjudiced against anyone with a religious conviction. Jenoch Jul 2014 #232

No, I'm prejudiced against anybody infected with a virus that has a 90% mortality rate. eom MohRokTah Jul 2014 #234

Yeah, except the "noble medical workers from Doctors Without Borders" whathehell Aug 2014 #274

Your reding comprehension needs work. Jenoch Aug 2014 #276

It's an interesting position, that has been decided wrong. Jenoch Aug 2014 #239

Yes, but the "risks" be damned, you make it clear it's their being whathehell Aug 2014 #247

So now you can read minds? MohRokTah Aug 2014 #249

No, I can read posts.. whathehell Aug 2014 #270

Apparently, you can't. eom MohRokTah Aug 2014 #271

BWAHAHAHAHAHA whathehell Aug 2014 #272

I agree. I'm going to get flamed for this... mnhtnbb Aug 2014 #253

Helping Ebola patients in the name of Jesus is going to ruin Africa? XemaSab Jul 2014 #103

Don't let logic and facts get in the way of whatever it is they're peddling. Hekate Jul 2014 #143

No, contractnig Ebola should keep you permanently banned from re-entry into the US. eom MohRokTah Jul 2014 #152

Even after they recover and they're not contagious? XemaSab Jul 2014 #155

IF they recover and are no longer contagious, yes, they should be allowed in. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #157

There is no way a US citizen can be denied entry back into the United States treestar Aug 2014 #282

My apologies MohRokTah Aug 2014 #283

actually your wrong MikeW Aug 2014 #295

No, I'm not treestar Aug 2014 #299

I feel the same about those who evangelize denial of treatment in the U.S. for U.S. citizens. LanternWaste Aug 2014 #254

Cool, then you can take credit if Ebola starts spreading in the US MohRokTah Aug 2014 #261

Well, sure, and besides, if they've Christians, they can't whathehell Jul 2014 #116

Missionaries YarnAddict Aug 2014 #255

That's your opinion and you're entitlted to it. eom MohRokTah Aug 2014 #262

Well, thank you, and YarnAddict Aug 2014 #263

People judge other people every moment of every day. eom MohRokTah Aug 2014 #264

Good to see that you agree with Donald Trump Hugabear Aug 2014 #285

My mind was changed when I found out they were using proper protocols MohRokTah Aug 2014 #287

I'm with you. May the Goddess take them into Her merciful care. I hope that's non-missionary enough Hekate Jul 2014 #92

You are so right. Jenoch Aug 2014 #241

These two went there to help with the Ebola outbreak. Jenoch Jul 2014 #184

I have a major problem with all evangelizing. eom MohRokTah Jul 2014 #186

What evangelizing? Jenoch Jul 2014 #218

AS missionaries. eom MohRokTah Jul 2014 #220

"Our ministry is all about Jesus—first, last, and always." eShirl Jul 2014 #229

They also think Jesus will deliver him from the virus. LisaL Jul 2014 #231

So??? Can you imagine the terror and fear they must feel? Are you judging them for clinging to msanthrope Aug 2014 #246

And? joshcryer Jul 2014 #225

They knew the risks and accepted them. eom MohRokTah Jul 2014 #226

They apparently accepted a flight home, too. joshcryer Jul 2014 #227

I'm with you. jen63 Jul 2014 #11

They're being taken to Emory Hospital. 840high Jul 2014 #196

And if the safety procedures fail? LittleBlue Jul 2014 #15

Well, then we are fucked. Then again, how many flights from those countries have landed here? nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #18

We aren't fucked LittleBlue Jul 2014 #19

Should we leave them to die? nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #20

We should spare no expense to send them the treatment they need LittleBlue Jul 2014 #23

So what you want is third-world healthcare workers to face the fear of infection, but msanthrope Jul 2014 #24

yes , these countries should be under quarantine. Nobel_Twaddle_III Jul 2014 #31

I want to limit the spread of this virus LittleBlue Jul 2014 #33

And yet, you presume to know more about limiting the spread of the virus than the CDC. nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #34

No, but I don't necessarily think it should be their decision alone LittleBlue Jul 2014 #42

And a Liberian doctor died too. LisaL Jul 2014 #44

Yes, that's what I've heard LittleBlue Jul 2014 #46

You have no idea how they got ill...to presume that it will spread in the USA is spreading lies Sheepshank Aug 2014 #291

There are already carriers here. Already. nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #49

Is this speculation or has it been verified? LittleBlue Jul 2014 #52

Do the math. I'm serious. Do the simple math. How many flights out of these countries to the US? msanthrope Jul 2014 #57

No, Ebola is different LittleBlue Jul 2014 #64

Okay--let's review here. You brought up the Black Death. The Black Death went airborne--pneumatic msanthrope Jul 2014 #70

From Pigs to Monkeys, Ebola Goes Airborne LittleBlue Jul 2014 #81

I think this strain went airborne. LisaL Jul 2014 #83

Yeah, I read speculation that it went airborne this time LittleBlue Jul 2014 #93

which is why we need to study it....right away.... VanillaRhapsody Jul 2014 #180

false premise Sheepshank Aug 2014 #293

Exactly...and because it has gone airborne, it is probably already here. But that's not a reason to msanthrope Jul 2014 #89

Let's review - the plague is a bacterial disease muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #248

There's every indication it has...but still no reason to panic. Even airborne....its worst form... msanthrope Aug 2014 #258

No, no, no, no it hasn't gone airborne. Please provide a reputable link stating that it has done so. Hugabear Aug 2014 #294

So the CDC is lying when its says there are no cases in the US? pnwmom Jul 2014 #158

No--I think given the contagion period, we should expect that cases are already here. nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #163

The CDC says no. They say that patients are only contagious when they are sick, pnwmom Jul 2014 #165

that was before it became possible airborne....now we don't know... VanillaRhapsody Jul 2014 #181

The CDC is sticking to that view -- but I agree that we probably don't really know. pnwmom Jul 2014 #214

Dr. Brantley was taking all the precautions recommended by the CDC. pnwmom Jul 2014 #96

The other two who areadly died were using all kind of precautions as well. LisaL Jul 2014 #99

And this is the same CDC that was just discovered not protecting its smallpox stores. pnwmom Jul 2014 #101

It went airborne. But that's still not a reason to panic. nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #105

I'm not. Wondering about precautions isn't panicking. nt pnwmom Jul 2014 #112

I trust the CDC to take the proper precautions. nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #114

I trust the CDC less today than I did a month ago. pnwmom Jul 2014 #122

You really think the same people who forgot smallpox in a storage container are working on this? nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #127

I really think that all humans are capable of error. pnwmom Jul 2014 #128

Do you really think the CDC doesn't know how he got it? And they don't have a handle msanthrope Jul 2014 #140

Yes, I really think CDC has no idea how he got it. LisaL Jul 2014 #142

There are only two choices. They say they don't know how he got it. pnwmom Jul 2014 #162

Liberians are already facing the threat of infection just from living there. pnwmom Jul 2014 #95

+1. nt clarice Jul 2014 #35

You are very logical Caretha Jul 2014 #137

Yes. They knew the risk and they voluntarily took the risk. morningfog Jul 2014 #183

"This virus kills with such certainty that it remains localized and dies out. " Not True dixiegrrrrl Aug 2014 #284

not to scare you but tons elehhhhna Jul 2014 #30

There's quite a bit of our military/special forces in various places in Africa, too-- TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #39

It doesn't scare me at all. Ebola is already in the US. nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #43

and your proof for this statement is ? Nobel_Twaddle_III Jul 2014 #82

Dude, the Reston Virgina case alone should prove to you just how this virus moves. As to the msanthrope Jul 2014 #86

you thinking it is here, is far different then your speculation. Nobel_Twaddle_III Jul 2014 #106

And the workers? nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #108

were propery clothed. Nobel_Twaddle_III Jul 2014 #119

Dr. Brantley's jen63 Jul 2014 #156

Going from the Wikipedia article, 1 worker cut himself while doing a necropsy, and didn't become ill muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #252

You think it's airborne, but nothing has confirmed that. You assume it is here, but morningfog Jul 2014 #194

I doubt if it's airborne. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #202

UTMB Galveston. elehhhhna Aug 2014 #281

The CDC say it isn't -- because the disease is only spread when a person is both pnwmom Jul 2014 #168

The one american who died from it did manage to fly despite the symptoms. LisaL Jul 2014 #193

And it can be transmitted by Aerows Jul 2014 #205

Right. He flew from Liberia to Nigeria, where they took him off the plane. pnwmom Jul 2014 #213

The CDC theory is that this disease has been contained because it isn't contagious pnwmom Jul 2014 #161

Yes, people clearly travel even with the symptoms. LisaL Jul 2014 #236

You have REALLY watched too many sci-fi movies snooper2 Aug 2014 #269

I can't imagine the reasoning behind it. It's a fool's errand..big-time. shraby Jul 2014 #3

right--so the Liberians can put their lives on the line caring for these Americans, but we can't? msanthrope Jul 2014 #7

I usually agree with you, but until someone explains how those doctors caught the virus, ecstatic Jul 2014 #169

You really think they are landing in Hartsfield? nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #172

No, but I think healthcare professionals and others who come in contact with him will be ecstatic Jul 2014 #177

These Americans had put their lives on the line to care for Liberians. pnwmom Jul 2014 #171

CDC probably wants to monitor the results of the experimental serum in a more controlled environment davidn3600 Jul 2014 #10

Exactly. nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #26

There are *very* few labs capable of handling Ebola, the CDC and USAMRID are two of the few. moriah Aug 2014 #265

Poor, selfless people. jen63 Jul 2014 #4

They got experimental treatment in the works nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #12

Why doesn't somebody gives them that serum while they are in Liberia? LisaL Jul 2014 #36

Oh this going to be a l-4 biological isolation nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #38

From what I read, the woman already got a dose of the serum while in Liberia. LisaL Jul 2014 #41

Yup nadinbrzezinski Jul 2014 #45

Yea, I agree. It seems it mutated and much easiter to transmit. LisaL Jul 2014 #47

Because we already have Ebola carriers here. nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #50

And you know that how? LisaL Jul 2014 #73

Answered elsewhere on thread. nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #76

no, you did not provide proof you just speculated based on air traffic. Nobel_Twaddle_III Jul 2014 #91

She has provided no cites - it's a guess. nt TBF Jul 2014 #147

They don't. They are talking out of their ass. morningfog Jul 2014 #195

They already gave her the serum, yesterday magical thyme Jul 2014 #179

And the doctor got injected with blood from surviving Ebola patient. LisaL Jul 2014 #203

transfusing blood from recovered patients has been tried before magical thyme Jul 2014 #209

I realize that's what they are hoping for. LisaL Jul 2014 #211

they would have performed a type, screen and x-match prior to the xfusion magical thyme Jul 2014 #216

He was on the computer in the early stages of the disease. LisaL Jul 2014 #221

I was reading that through yesterday magical thyme Jul 2014 #223

Not sure if this is a good idea, but if this thing goes airborne... zappaman Jul 2014 #13

M-O-O-N, that spells Ebola distantearlywarning Jul 2014 #21

nice ... n/t ProdigalJunkMail Jul 2014 #37

You just got an evil chuckle out of me XemaSab Jul 2014 #58

Ebola, my life for you!! nt longship Jul 2014 #235

DUzy! moriah Aug 2014 #266

Why can't the CDC build a special isolation/care center on site in Liberia? TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #17

and it could be used for people there also JI7 Jul 2014 #22

Sure--make a big investment in containing the problem in Africa, and TREATING TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #25

considering it's been in africa it seems like something we should have done long time ago JI7 Jul 2014 #27

It's already here. nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #51

IMO Not enough people die from Ebola for a serum or vaccine to be profitable for big pharma notadmblnd Jul 2014 #107

Experts: Ebola Vaccine At Least 50 White People Away XemaSab Jul 2014 #118

That occurred to me too notadmblnd Jul 2014 #121

Level 4 labs don't pop up overnight, sadly. moriah Aug 2014 #268

They're already being treated there--the fact that they're not dead yet is TwilightGardener Aug 2014 #273

This is so fucked. RiffRandell Jul 2014 #28

Because all we need for the full happiness is Ebola in the US. LisaL Jul 2014 #29

This is NOT a good idea!!! janlyn Jul 2014 #40

Wow! Some really ugly crap in this thread. MineralMan Jul 2014 #48

Thank you. nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #53

You're welcome. MineralMan Jul 2014 #60

Clearly stupidity isn't limited to GOPers. Cali_Democrat Jul 2014 #62

Yes, it is. MineralMan Jul 2014 #65

Well that may well be because it is "African viral disease" sheshe2 Jul 2014 #185

Not to mention how many climate change will eventually kill. nt Live and Learn Aug 2014 #243

Get the duct tape and the plastic sheeting!!!! nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #63

Moronic panic response. MineralMan Jul 2014 #68

And the thing is, it's entirely possible we may have carriers here. But that's why we have an alert msanthrope Jul 2014 #75

Ignorance and unwillingness to learn leads to MineralMan Jul 2014 #78

I dunno. But dying from bleeding out seems like a very inhumane way to die to me. LisaL Jul 2014 #80

You're not going to die from this, LisaL. MineralMan Jul 2014 #88

Well, nice to know you are so confident. LisaL Jul 2014 #100

Knowledge. That's where. MineralMan Jul 2014 #117

How exactly have you been "studying" this outbreak? LisaL Jul 2014 #123

There's tons of information on ebola in the journals. MineralMan Jul 2014 #133

Well, how did the three doctors who used protection got this disease? LisaL Jul 2014 #135

they were all 3 in contact with people outside the hospital magical thyme Jul 2014 #182

I blame Hollywood. Seriously, I loves me a good zombie/biological hazard movie, but msanthrope Jul 2014 #85

Gaaah. I'm planning a visit to the East Coast to see my sis, and unless I start driving now... Hekate Jul 2014 #139

This is how the one American that died got it. LisaL Jul 2014 #146

Good thing my sister lives in upstate New York and not Liberia, then. Yeah? Hekate Jul 2014 #164

He was actively involved jen63 Jul 2014 #166

Considering the doctor himself doesn't know how he got it (he says he took all proper precautions), LisaL Jul 2014 #190

Have you seen the photos jen63 Jul 2014 #201

I saw the medical personnel at the hospital dressed from head to toe pnwmom Aug 2014 #237

You are going to be on the East Coast, Hekate. sheshe2 Jul 2014 #188

Hallo, sheshe Hekate Jul 2014 #222

I will never forget the absurdity and stupidity of that either! nt Live and Learn Aug 2014 #244

You're really slamming people Union Scribe Jul 2014 #104

Thanks for noticing. MineralMan Jul 2014 #110

+1000 Cali_Democrat Jul 2014 #55

Thanks. Some people are heartlessly selfish. MineralMan Jul 2014 #61

In fairness, you don't live near the area. ecstatic Jul 2014 #67

I don't care how they feel, frankly. MineralMan Jul 2014 #71

The callousness of some in this thread is beyond disgusting. neverforget Jul 2014 #72

Yes. I've made mental notes. MineralMan Jul 2014 #77

Not callous. I am a former nurse who had to undergo monitoring for TwilightGardener Jul 2014 #126

This post at least makes human and scientific sense. The posts hating on missionaries are beyond... Hekate Jul 2014 #224

The part that is scary is that Dr. Brantley was vigilant in taking all the appropriate precautions. pnwmom Jul 2014 #94

Even more stringent precsutions will be taken here. MineralMan Jul 2014 #98

Please don't patronize me. pnwmom Jul 2014 #109

You're awfully confident. Dozens of transportation and healthcare workers ecstatic Jul 2014 #130

Exactly! Skip Intro Jul 2014 #154

+1 DCBob Jul 2014 #131

Give me a break. Skip Intro Jul 2014 #132

Mistakes happen. Bonobo Jul 2014 #145

No quarantine is in place. Planes are arriving MineralMan Jul 2014 #149

Okay, you win. Now I'm more worried about that. nt Bonobo Jul 2014 #160

+1000 Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2014 #191

Agree with you and am surprised by the reaction to bringing these 2 missionaries home. kiranon Jul 2014 #217

+1 nt Live and Learn Aug 2014 #242

And to think that on another thread regarding Trump's Tweet Sheepshank Aug 2014 #297

We should bring them home gwheezie Jul 2014 #56

This message was self-deleted by its author name not needed Jul 2014 #74

Is the USA all stocked up on opiates and suicide pills? seveneyes Jul 2014 #59

Wow. I go to Emory almost every week ecstatic Jul 2014 #66

I hope the experimental treatment works. redwitch Jul 2014 #69

Word XemaSab Jul 2014 #79

Any encouraging advances in treatment for this wretched virus would be a good thing. redwitch Jul 2014 #87

Two doctors (one from Liberia, one from Sierra Leone) already died from it. LisaL Jul 2014 #97

Are they being brought back because they are dying? milestogo Jul 2014 #113

The bodies of Ebola patients are very infections so they would be burned. LisaL Jul 2014 #125

Maybe its just so their families can have the remains here instead of in Africa. milestogo Jul 2014 #134

As I already explained, the remains are highly infectious. LisaL Jul 2014 #138

I agree, it does not make sense. milestogo Jul 2014 #141

I agree. If death is inevitable, there is no reason to bring them here. Cremate them there. pnwmom Jul 2014 #159

Please do some research - your information is incorrect justamama83 Aug 2014 #251

Who decided this? Who is repsonsible for this idiotic, dangerous call? Who? n/t Skip Intro Jul 2014 #124

Read the names in this thread defending the policy TBF Jul 2014 #148

My concern level for this is super low XemaSab Jul 2014 #144

"My concern level for someone who doesn't even know that they've been exposed hopping on an airplane ecstatic Jul 2014 #174

I'm wondering how they will sanitize the plane so it can be used again after this trip. n/t pnwmom Jul 2014 #175

I'm not all that concerned about a doctor or nurse spreading it. xmas74 Aug 2014 #240

These are Americans who risked their lives for humanity. mainer Jul 2014 #170

It's been a rough month - TBF Jul 2014 #176

"What if this was your son or daughter? Would you abandon them to die?" MohRokTah Jul 2014 #197

So whenever someone argues only the GOP is full of anti-science jeff47 Jul 2014 #187

I feel like I've warped pack to 1984 during the initial days of the AIDS crisis. Hassin Bin Sober Jul 2014 #198

Yeah...and you and I agree on that. Not much else, but on that. msanthrope Jul 2014 #200

yes since that time the news media has gotten worse on any medical issues GusBob Jul 2014 #219

case in point i click out of this thread to see a new OP that claims 3 victims to US GusBob Jul 2014 #230

This thread surprised me. 840high Jul 2014 #199

Every resource should be used to help these heros Strelnikov_ Jul 2014 #208

If somebody wants to be a hero, they can volunteer to go down there to help these people. LisaL Jul 2014 #210

Really? Is this what this site has come to? n/t Strelnikov_ Jul 2014 #215

So if you become sick in a foreign country... cwydro Aug 2014 #278

Surprise surprise, some of the least compassionate people on DU don't want the health care workers CreekDog Jul 2014 #212

I would bet that the hospitals involved are not requiring people to work with these patients gwheezie Jul 2014 #233

They must be able to contain the virus flamingdem Aug 2014 #245

They have little ability based on a documentary I saw about JCMach1 Aug 2014 #259

They know the current outbreak has taken about 6 months to infect about 1200 people muriel_volestrangler Aug 2014 #275

Frontline's superbugs at NIH? SMC22307 Aug 2014 #298

I do understand wanting to bring Americans home. In_The_Wind Aug 2014 #250

Anybody who has ever worked in a hospital knows that protocols are never followed mnhtnbb Aug 2014 #256

There lies the problem... JCMach1 Aug 2014 #260

Yep, I remember this happening in my area years ago. RiffRandell Aug 2014 #267

This is not the worst thing that could happen YarnAddict Aug 2014 #257

I agree with you gwheezie Aug 2014 #277

I remember when HIV victims were dismissed because they made the "choice" to be gay. Gormy Cuss Aug 2014 #279

agreed. La Lioness Priyanka Aug 2014 #286

I was very nervous when I first heard TBF Aug 2014 #280